In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

Episode Summary – Leadership Limbo

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dig into the realities of “the middle” in leadership—focusing especially on middle management. They frame leadership through three paradigms: being in the middle of the org chart, navigating career transitions, and balancing the internal work of leading yourself while leading others.

The conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities of middle management, from building credibility and shifting relationships, to getting results through others without falling into micromanagement. They also explore the tension of carrying out someone else’s vision, managing up while still supporting your team, and the identity shifts that come with moving into leadership roles.

The hosts emphasize that management and leadership are not separate—managers must lead, and when done well, the role can be life-giving. They leave listeners with a reflective “3-2-1” exercise:

• 3 leadership successes,

• 2 current opportunities/challenges,

• 1 action step for next week.

This episode offers practical insights, thought-provoking questions, and a reminder that leadership is about unlocking the potential of others while navigating the tensions of the in-between

In our very first episode, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark unpack the concept of Leadership Limbo —leading from the “in-betwixt and in-between” spaces where most leadership actually happens. We explore why leadership from the middle matters, what “limbo” really means, and how to navigate the tensions of being responsible without full authority.

Whether you’re an emerging leader, a middle manager, or a senior leader working to better support your team, this episode blends self-awareness, purpose-driven leadership, and practical tools to help you lead with clarity and influence. We share our personal journeys, reflect on lessons learned, and set the stage for the conversations and strategies to come.

Key topics in this episode:

• Defining “limbo” and the in-betwixt and in-between of leadership

• Why leadership in the middle is different—and critical

• How influence matters more than authority

• Balancing self-reflection with actionable leadership strategies

If you’ve ever felt caught between managing up and leading down, or you’re looking for ways to lead more effectively from where you are, this is where your journey starts.