In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark move from questions to deeper internal work, exploring what it actually means to lead from self in moments of uncertainty, tension, and external disruption. Building directly on their prior episode about ambiguity, this conversation shifts from what leaders should ask to how leaders must show up.

At the center of the discussion is a simple but demanding idea: you cannot lead others well if you are not grounded in yourself. When leaders face pressure, anxiety, or emotionally charged situations, they often default into reactive patterns—accommodating, rescuing, avoiding, or controlling. These patterns may feel helpful in the moment, but they ultimately erode trust and limit the growth of others.

Josh introduces a deeper framing of “self” versus “pseudo-self,” drawing on concepts from systems thinking and internal family systems. The self represents a grounded, principled core—marked by calmness, clarity, curiosity, compassion, and confidence. The pseudo-self, by contrast, emerges under pressure and leads to reactive leadership behaviors that prioritize short-term relief over long-term effectiveness.

The conversation also explores the connection between leadership and spirituality—not in a narrow or prescriptive sense, but as a broader connection to purpose, meaning, and perspective. Leaders who are grounded in something beyond the immediate moment—whether that is purpose, values, or a sense of awe—are better equipped to remain steady and present when circumstances become chaotic.

A key theme throughout the episode is the importance of presence. Effective leaders do not eliminate uncertainty; they create calm within it. They maintain consistency, speak from a place of integrity, and resist the urge to over-accommodate or speak on behalf of others. Instead, they create the conditions for people to take responsibility for themselves.

The episode ultimately lands on a progression: leadership begins with self, extends to how we show up for others, and culminates in how we move forward together. In uncertain moments, the most powerful thing a leader can do is remain grounded, intentional, and clear—so that others can do the same.

00:00 – Introduction to Leadership Limbo and Hosts 03:05 – Five Key Questions for Leaders During Difficult Moments 09:51 – Understanding the Concept of Self in Leadership 15:29 – The Eight Cs of Self and Emotional Reactivity 21:17 – The Dangers of Speaking for Others and the 'We' 24:23 – The Connection Between Spirituality and Leadership Effectiveness 27:00 – The Role of Purpose and Awe in Leadership 33:50 – Presence, Calmness, and Finding Sacredness in the Mundane 36:49 – From Self to Others 44:40 – Final Reflections and Practical Steps for Leaders

Leadership effectiveness begins with the ability to lead from a grounded sense of self.

Reactive behaviors often stem from pressure and can undermine trust and ownership.

Language matters—speaking for others can unintentionally limit their agency.

Spiritual grounding, whether through purpose or perspective, strengthens leadership presence.

Calm, clarity, and consistency are more powerful than overreaction in uncertain moments.

Leaders create conditions for others to lead themselves rather than solving everything for them.

Awareness and intentionality are more valuable than immediate answers.

Revisit the five leadership questions from the prior episode and reflect on where you feel most reactive right now. Then take one intentional step to reconnect with yourself—whether through quiet reflection, engaging with something that creates a sense of awe, or simply slowing down enough to notice how you are showing up.

This week, practice speaking from self. Notice when you default to “we” and instead ground your statements in what you believe, what you see, and what you are responsible for. Pay attention to how this shifts your presence and your leadership.

Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the concept of “No Bad Parts” The Eight Cs of Self Bowen Family Systems Theory and self-differentiation

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark take a different approach to leadership in uncertain times. Rather than offering immediate strategies or answers, they focus on something more foundational: the questions leaders must ask themselves when the world outside of work begins to shape what happens inside of it.

Framed by global instability, political tension, economic uncertainty, and the everyday realities teams are carrying into the workplace, the conversation explores the intersection between the external world and internal leadership responsibility. Leaders are not operating in a vacuum—and neither are the people they lead.

The core of the episode centers on surfacing the often unspoken questions leaders carry in these moments. What do I need right now to lead well? How do I balance empathy with accountability? What is my role in addressing external issues that impact my team? Where do I represent the institution, and where do I show up as myself? How much should I name, and how much should I move forward?

Rather than resolving these tensions, Josh and John emphasize that the real risk is not getting the answer wrong—it is failing to ask the question at all. When leaders avoid these internal questions, they default into reactive behaviors: over-functioning, avoidance, premature certainty, or shifting emotional burden onto others.

The episode ultimately reframes leadership in complex times as a practice of awareness before action. By slowing down and naming the questions beneath the surface, leaders create the conditions to respond with intention rather than react for relief.

This conversation sets up a continuation, where the focus will shift from the questions leaders must ask to the practical ways they can navigate and respond to them.

00:00 – Welcome Back and Setting the Context Re-entry after a short break and framing the intensity of the current moment.

04:00 – The World Showing Up at Work Why leadership cannot ignore geopolitical, economic, and social realities.

09:00 – Helplessness and the Limits of Control Naming the feeling of not being able to influence large-scale events.

13:00 – What Leaders Carry Internally How unprocessed thoughts and emotions shape leadership behavior.

17:00 – Question 1: What Do I Need Right Now? Grounding yourself before attempting to lead others.

21:00 – Question 2: Empathy vs. Accountability Balancing care for people with the need to continue the work.

26:00 – Question 3: Politics, Institutions, and Leadership Identity Navigating external issues while representing an organization.

31:00 – Question 4: What Do I Name vs. Move Forward From? Deciding when to acknowledge and when to proceed.

34:00 – What Can I Actually Do? Shifting from helplessness to intentional action.

36:00 – Closing and Looking Ahead Framing next episode: moving from questions to strategies.

Leadership in uncertain times starts with awareness, not answers.

Unasked questions often lead to reactive leadership behaviors.

Leaders must balance personal identity, team needs, and institutional responsibility.

Empathy without boundaries can become over-functioning; avoidance can become disengagement.

Not everything must be addressed, but ignoring everything creates disconnection.

The question “what can I do?” shifts leaders from helplessness to action.

Strong leadership requires choosing response over reaction.

Take 10 minutes this week to write down the questions you have been avoiding. Not the answers—the questions. What is creating tension for you right now at the intersection of the world and your work? Where do you feel unclear, conflicted, or reactive?

Choose one of those questions and sit with it. Don’t rush to solve it. Notice how simply naming it changes how you show up. Leadership begins by asking better questions, not by forcing faster answers.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark return to one of the most defining realities of leadership: ambiguity. Rather than treating uncertainty as something to escape, they challenge leaders—especially middle managers—to see it as the very condition that requires leadership in the first place.

The conversation reframes ambiguity as more than just uncertainty. It often shows up as complexity, chaos, or competing priorities that lack clear answers. For middle managers, this tension is amplified as they sit between direction from above and responsibility to execute below—often without full clarity in either direction.

A key shift explored in this episode is moving from reacting to ambiguity to responding to it. Reactive leadership shows up as over-functioning, avoidance, or premature certainty. Responsive leadership, on the other hand, requires self-awareness, clarity of principles, and the ability to stay grounded even when pressure rises. This is where the concept of self-differentiation becomes essential—leaders who can remain steady without collapsing under stress or overcompensating to control outcomes.

Josh and John also emphasize that ambiguity is not something to “get through,” but something to learn from. Leaders who slow down enough to sit in uncertainty—rather than rush past it—gain deeper insight into themselves, their teams, and the situation at hand.

From there, the episode moves into practical ways to lead through ambiguity. Naming uncertainty openly creates clarity and trust. Establishing clear roles and decision rights reduces confusion. Building a culture of feedback, shared language, and real conversations ensures teams can move forward even without perfect answers. And importantly, practicing these behaviors before pressure hits helps teams respond more effectively when it does.

The conversation ultimately lands on a simple but challenging truth: leadership is not about eliminating ambiguity—it is about developing the capacity to lead within it.

00:00 – Opening and Podcast Setup Light intro and framing the return to ambiguity as a core leadership theme.

03:30 – What Ambiguity Really Is Defining ambiguity, complexity, and chaos—and how they show up in leadership.

06:00 – Why Leaders Struggle with Uncertainty The instinct to rush to clarity versus learning to sit in the unknown.

09:00 – The Unique Pressure on Middle Managers Leading with incomplete information while still driving execution.

12:30 – Respond vs. React Self-differentiation and how leaders avoid over-functioning, avoidance, or control.

18:00 – Naming Ambiguity to Create Clarity Why acknowledging uncertainty builds trust and alignment.

25:00 – Building Systems That Reduce Confusion Roles, decision rights, and creating structure inside ambiguity.

30:00 – Culture, Feedback, and Communication How shared language and real conversations help teams navigate uncertainty.

36:00 – Practicing Leadership Before It’s Needed Building muscle memory so teams are ready when ambiguity hits.

39:00 – Closing Reflections and Application Why ambiguity is not something to escape—but something to use.

Ambiguity is not a temporary phase—it is a constant condition of leadership.

Strong leaders respond to uncertainty with intention rather than reacting emotionally.

Self-differentiation allows leaders to stay grounded under pressure without overcorrecting.

Naming ambiguity openly creates alignment and reduces hidden tension.

Clear roles and decision rights eliminate unnecessary confusion.

A culture of feedback and shared language strengthens teams in uncertain moments.

The best leaders don’t avoid ambiguity—they build the capacity to lead through it.

Choose one situation this week where you feel unclear, uncertain, or under pressure. Instead of rushing to solve it, pause and name the ambiguity—first for yourself, then for your team if appropriate. Ask: what do we know, what don’t we know, and what principles will guide us forward? Practice responding with intention rather than reacting for relief.

Concept of self-differentiated leadership (Bowen Family Systems) Failure of Nerve (Edwin Friedman)

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark explore one of the most defining — and uncomfortable — realities of leadership: ambiguity. Framed by a listener suggestion and grounded in real-world leadership experiences, the conversation centers on what it actually means to lead when clarity is limited, direction is evolving, and certainty is out of reach.

Rather than treating ambiguity as a problem to solve, Josh and John position it as the environment in which leadership truly exists. Whether it’s navigating shifting priorities, incomplete information, competing perspectives, or unclear ownership, ambiguity is not a failure of leadership — it is the condition that requires it.

The episode breaks down different forms of ambiguity, from moments where there is genuinely no clear answer to situations where competing voices are equally confident in different paths forward. The discussion highlights how leaders often unintentionally increase ambiguity through lack of clarity, shifting principles, or avoidance of difficult decisions.

A key tension explored is the emotional and psychological weight of ambiguity. Leaders are not only managing uncertainty themselves, but also absorbing and translating that uncertainty for their teams. This creates a layered challenge, particularly for middle managers who sit between executive decisions and frontline realities.

Josh and John introduce the Stockdale Paradox as a powerful framing tool — the ability to acknowledge the full difficulty of a situation while maintaining confidence that a path forward exists. This balance becomes essential for leaders trying to communicate honestly without creating panic.

Ultimately, the episode reinforces a core idea: ambiguity cannot be eliminated, but it can be named, understood, and navigated with intention. Leadership is less about providing answers and more about guiding people through the space between not knowing and moving forward anyway.

00:00 – Opening and Framing the Conversation on Ambiguity Introduction to the topic and listener inspiration.

05:00 – What Is Ambiguity in Leadership? Defining ambiguity and exploring real-world examples.

10:00 – When Certainty Creates Ambiguity How competing confident perspectives create complexity.

15:00 – Why Ambiguity Shows Up in Leadership Change, incomplete information, and the nature of decision-making.

20:00 – The Role of Leadership in Uncertainty Why ambiguity is the condition that requires leadership.

25:00 – The Middle Manager Challenge Navigating ambiguity both from above and below.

30:00 – Leading Others Through Ambiguity Balancing honesty, confidence, and emotional stability.

35:00 – The Stockdale Paradox and Naming Reality Holding tension between difficulty and hope.

40:00 – Closing Reflections and Homework Preparing for deeper strategies in the next episode.

Ambiguity is not a leadership failure; it is the environment where leadership is required.

Leaders often increase ambiguity by avoiding clarity, ownership, or difficult decisions.

Uncertainty exists both in the absence of information and in the presence of competing certainty.

Middle managers experience amplified ambiguity as it flows through the organization.

Effective leadership requires acknowledging uncertainty without creating instability.

The ability to hold tension — difficulty and hope at the same time — is a core leadership skill.

Naming ambiguity is the first step to navigating it.

Pause and identify where you are currently experiencing ambiguity in your leadership or work. Name it directly. Instead of trying to immediately solve it, sit with it and recognize the tension between what you know and what you don’t. Consider how that ambiguity is impacting your decisions, your communication, and your team. Awareness is the first step toward leading through it.

The Stockdale Paradox Bill Kurtz Substack on leadership and courage Brené Brown concept of “name it to tame it”

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark sit down with David Boelens, leader of the Integrated Talent Development organization at Raytheon, to explore what it really takes to develop leaders at scale. Drawing on his experience as a U.S. Army cavalry officer and now as a leader responsible for developing thousands of professionals in operations, supply chain, and quality roles, David shares lessons about leadership that translate across both military and corporate environments.

The conversation begins with David reflecting on his early leadership experiences in the Army, including platoon leadership during a deployment to Iraq. Those experiences shaped a philosophy that still guides his leadership today: you cannot afford not to invest deeply in developing people. Leaders must be willing to allow learning, mistakes, and growth because the lessons gained in lower-risk moments often become critical later.

From there, the discussion shifts into leadership development inside large organizations. David introduces the concept of leader intent, a military principle that focuses less on dictating every step and more on clearly defining the outcome and the purpose behind it. When people understand the “why” behind the mission, they can adapt, take initiative, and solve problems without waiting for direction.

David also shares how his team approaches talent development systems inside a large organization. Effective development programs must balance three priorities: they must be personal, scalable, and sustainable. Programs often fail when leaders optimize them for administrators rather than the people and managers who must interact with them.

The conversation closes with practical insights on developing early-career leaders. One of the most common challenges David sees is hesitation to speak up or contribute ideas. Strong leadership development creates safe opportunities for people to practice initiative—whether through networking, experiential learning, or ownership of their own development path.

Throughout the episode, the central message remains consistent: great leadership development is not about controlling outcomes or handing people the answers. It is about creating environments where people take ownership, develop confidence, and grow their leadership muscles through real responsibility.

00:00 – Opening Banter and Introducing David Boelens Josh and John introduce the episode and welcome David, leader of Raytheon’s Integrated Talent Development organization.

05:00 – Military Leadership and the Reality of Learning Through Experience David reflects on leading soldiers early in his career and how real-world responsibility shapes leadership.

12:00 – Lessons from Combat Leadership A story about initiative and learning under pressure illustrates how small leadership lessons become critical later.

20:00 – Leader Intent: A Military Principle for Modern Leadership Why defining the outcome and purpose is more powerful than micromanaging execution.

28:00 – Building Talent Development Systems at Scale Balancing personal development with scalable and sustainable learning systems.

36:00 – Ownership vs. Spoon-Feeding Development Why leaders must resist solving every problem and instead require people to own their growth.

44:00 – Developing Early Career Leaders Helping younger professionals find their voice and confidence to contribute.

47:00 – Leadership Inspiration and Final Reflections David shares leadership influences including Colin Powell and Abraham Lincoln.

Leadership development requires investing deeply in people long before the stakes are high.

Clear leader intent enables initiative and adaptability instead of dependence.

Development systems must balance personal relevance with scalability and sustainability.

Ownership is a critical leadership muscle and must be practiced, not taught theoretically.

Early career leaders often need encouragement and structure to speak up and contribute.

Great leaders create environments where people can practice initiative safely.

Leadership growth happens through experience, responsibility, and reflection.

Where in your leadership are you unintentionally taking ownership away from others? Identify one area this week where you can clarify the outcome you want while leaving space for your team to determine how to achieve it. Leadership development grows when responsibility shifts from the leader to the people being developed.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John build on recent conversations about presence, influence, and accountability by introducing a powerful leadership contrast from Liz Wiseman’s book Multipliers: the difference between Multipliers and Diminishers.

While overtly destructive leadership behaviors are easy to spot, this conversation focuses on something more subtle — the Accidental Diminisher. These are leaders with good intentions who unknowingly over-function, over-direct, over-protect, or over-communicate in ways that limit their team’s ownership and growth.

The episode begins by grounding listeners in the concept of over-functioning — stepping in too quickly, solving too much, and unintentionally creating dependency. From there, Josh and John walk through nine accidental diminisher tendencies, including the Rescuer, Idea Fountain, Rapid Responder, Optimist, Strategist, Perfectionist, Protector, Pace Setter, and Always On leader.

Rather than shaming these tendencies, the conversation reframes them as anxiety-driven postures that often show up under pressure. When stress rises, leaders default to familiar patterns — rescuing instead of empowering, answering instead of asking, pushing pace instead of developing capacity.

The through-line is clear: leadership is not about doing more. It is about multiplying others. When leaders dominate space, control outcomes, or protect too much, they unintentionally shrink the very people they are meant to develop.

This episode invites middle managers to examine their own default tendencies and make intentional adjustments that create more ownership, more debate, and more growth across their teams.

00:00 – Coffee Mugs and Reconnecting to Presence Light opening before transitioning back to leadership themes.

05:00 – Introducing Multipliers vs. Diminishers The core framework from Liz Wiseman’s research.

08:30 – Over-Functioning Explained Why leaders do too much and how it creates dependency.

12:30 – The Rescuer, Idea Fountain, and Rapid Responder How good intentions quietly limit team ownership.

22:00 – The Optimist and Strategist When positivity and certainty suppress debate and innovation.

27:00 – The Perfectionist and Protector High standards and shielding behaviors that discourage growth.

32:00 – Pace Setter and Always On Leadership How intensity and presence can crowd out others.

36:00 – Homework and Reflection Identifying your dominant accidental diminisher tendency.

Most diminishing leadership habits stem from good intentions, not bad motives.

Over-functioning creates under-functioning in others.

Rescuing, over-responding, or over-directing may feel helpful but often reduce ownership.

High standards are healthy; perfectionism that removes autonomy is not.

Moving fast is not the same as developing others.

Multiplying leadership requires space, patience, and disciplined restraint.

Under pressure, your default tendencies are amplified — awareness is essential.

Identify which of the nine accidental diminisher tendencies resonates most with you. Be honest. Notice when it shows up — especially under stress or urgency. Then choose one small behavioral adjustment to practice this week. You might wait before responding, speak last in a meeting, resist rescuing, or invite debate before deciding.

Leadership multiplication begins not by adding more techniques, but by subtracting habits that shrink others.

Multipliers by Liz Wiseman The Wiseman Group (wisemangroup.com)

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John sit down with Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin to explore one of leadership’s most avoided but essential responsibilities: accountability. Drawing from her book Hope Is Not a Strategy, Brandi makes a compelling case that strong intentions and motivational language are not enough to produce consistent, high-quality results.

Hope matters. It is human and necessary. But as Brandi explains, hope without systems creates uneven performance, pockets of excellence, and persistent gaps. Leaders often assume shared standards without clearly defining them. The result is inconsistency—and inconsistency erodes trust.

Dr. Chin challenges leaders to move from aspiration to operational clarity. Values like excellence, respect, and equity only shape culture when they are translated into observable behaviors and reinforced consistently. When expectations are vague, accountability feels personal or punitive. When expectations are clear and upheld, accountability becomes cultural and developmental.

The conversation also addresses resistance. Pushback against accountability is rarely about defiance; it is often rooted in fear—fear of failure, exposure, or loss of autonomy. Effective leaders respond not with punishment, but with consistency, coaching, and steady reinforcement of shared standards.

This episode serves as both a conversation and an invitation. If you are serious about improving quality, building trust, and strengthening consistency in your organization, Dr. Chin’s work offers a practical roadmap. You can learn more about her book, consulting, and leadership resources at brandichin.com.

00:00 – Introducing Dr. Brandi Chin and the Accountability Conversation Why this topic matters for leaders today.

06:00 – Hope vs. Systems The danger of relying on intention without operational clarity.

14:30 – Translating Values into Action How to turn aspirational language into measurable behaviors.

26:00 – Follow-Through and Consistency Why reinforcement defines leadership credibility.

37:00 – Resistance and Fear Understanding pushback and responding with steadiness.

45:00 – Accountability as the Path to Quality Why consistency separates average organizations from excellent ones.

Where are you relying on hope instead of clarity? Identify one expectation that needs stronger definition and follow-through this week. If this conversation resonated, explore Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin’s work at brandichin.com and consider how her framework could strengthen accountability in your organization.