In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark move from questions to deeper internal work, exploring what it actually means to lead from self in moments of uncertainty, tension, and external disruption. Building directly on their prior episode about ambiguity, this conversation shifts from what leaders should ask to how leaders must show up.

At the center of the discussion is a simple but demanding idea: you cannot lead others well if you are not grounded in yourself. When leaders face pressure, anxiety, or emotionally charged situations, they often default into reactive patterns—accommodating, rescuing, avoiding, or controlling. These patterns may feel helpful in the moment, but they ultimately erode trust and limit the growth of others.

Josh introduces a deeper framing of “self” versus “pseudo-self,” drawing on concepts from systems thinking and internal family systems. The self represents a grounded, principled core—marked by calmness, clarity, curiosity, compassion, and confidence. The pseudo-self, by contrast, emerges under pressure and leads to reactive leadership behaviors that prioritize short-term relief over long-term effectiveness.

The conversation also explores the connection between leadership and spirituality—not in a narrow or prescriptive sense, but as a broader connection to purpose, meaning, and perspective. Leaders who are grounded in something beyond the immediate moment—whether that is purpose, values, or a sense of awe—are better equipped to remain steady and present when circumstances become chaotic.

A key theme throughout the episode is the importance of presence. Effective leaders do not eliminate uncertainty; they create calm within it. They maintain consistency, speak from a place of integrity, and resist the urge to over-accommodate or speak on behalf of others. Instead, they create the conditions for people to take responsibility for themselves.

The episode ultimately lands on a progression: leadership begins with self, extends to how we show up for others, and culminates in how we move forward together. In uncertain moments, the most powerful thing a leader can do is remain grounded, intentional, and clear—so that others can do the same.

00:00 – Introduction to Leadership Limbo and Hosts 03:05 – Five Key Questions for Leaders During Difficult Moments 09:51 – Understanding the Concept of Self in Leadership 15:29 – The Eight Cs of Self and Emotional Reactivity 21:17 – The Dangers of Speaking for Others and the 'We' 24:23 – The Connection Between Spirituality and Leadership Effectiveness 27:00 – The Role of Purpose and Awe in Leadership 33:50 – Presence, Calmness, and Finding Sacredness in the Mundane 36:49 – From Self to Others 44:40 – Final Reflections and Practical Steps for Leaders

Leadership effectiveness begins with the ability to lead from a grounded sense of self.

Reactive behaviors often stem from pressure and can undermine trust and ownership.

Language matters—speaking for others can unintentionally limit their agency.

Spiritual grounding, whether through purpose or perspective, strengthens leadership presence.

Calm, clarity, and consistency are more powerful than overreaction in uncertain moments.

Leaders create conditions for others to lead themselves rather than solving everything for them.

Awareness and intentionality are more valuable than immediate answers.

Revisit the five leadership questions from the prior episode and reflect on where you feel most reactive right now. Then take one intentional step to reconnect with yourself—whether through quiet reflection, engaging with something that creates a sense of awe, or simply slowing down enough to notice how you are showing up.

This week, practice speaking from self. Notice when you default to “we” and instead ground your statements in what you believe, what you see, and what you are responsible for. Pay attention to how this shifts your presence and your leadership.

Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the concept of “No Bad Parts” The Eight Cs of Self Bowen Family Systems Theory and self-differentiation

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark take a different approach to leadership in uncertain times. Rather than offering immediate strategies or answers, they focus on something more foundational: the questions leaders must ask themselves when the world outside of work begins to shape what happens inside of it.

Framed by global instability, political tension, economic uncertainty, and the everyday realities teams are carrying into the workplace, the conversation explores the intersection between the external world and internal leadership responsibility. Leaders are not operating in a vacuum—and neither are the people they lead.

The core of the episode centers on surfacing the often unspoken questions leaders carry in these moments. What do I need right now to lead well? How do I balance empathy with accountability? What is my role in addressing external issues that impact my team? Where do I represent the institution, and where do I show up as myself? How much should I name, and how much should I move forward?

Rather than resolving these tensions, Josh and John emphasize that the real risk is not getting the answer wrong—it is failing to ask the question at all. When leaders avoid these internal questions, they default into reactive behaviors: over-functioning, avoidance, premature certainty, or shifting emotional burden onto others.

The episode ultimately reframes leadership in complex times as a practice of awareness before action. By slowing down and naming the questions beneath the surface, leaders create the conditions to respond with intention rather than react for relief.

This conversation sets up a continuation, where the focus will shift from the questions leaders must ask to the practical ways they can navigate and respond to them.

00:00 – Welcome Back and Setting the Context Re-entry after a short break and framing the intensity of the current moment.

04:00 – The World Showing Up at Work Why leadership cannot ignore geopolitical, economic, and social realities.

09:00 – Helplessness and the Limits of Control Naming the feeling of not being able to influence large-scale events.

13:00 – What Leaders Carry Internally How unprocessed thoughts and emotions shape leadership behavior.

17:00 – Question 1: What Do I Need Right Now? Grounding yourself before attempting to lead others.

21:00 – Question 2: Empathy vs. Accountability Balancing care for people with the need to continue the work.

26:00 – Question 3: Politics, Institutions, and Leadership Identity Navigating external issues while representing an organization.

31:00 – Question 4: What Do I Name vs. Move Forward From? Deciding when to acknowledge and when to proceed.

34:00 – What Can I Actually Do? Shifting from helplessness to intentional action.

36:00 – Closing and Looking Ahead Framing next episode: moving from questions to strategies.

Leadership in uncertain times starts with awareness, not answers.

Unasked questions often lead to reactive leadership behaviors.

Leaders must balance personal identity, team needs, and institutional responsibility.

Empathy without boundaries can become over-functioning; avoidance can become disengagement.

Not everything must be addressed, but ignoring everything creates disconnection.

The question “what can I do?” shifts leaders from helplessness to action.

Strong leadership requires choosing response over reaction.

Take 10 minutes this week to write down the questions you have been avoiding. Not the answers—the questions. What is creating tension for you right now at the intersection of the world and your work? Where do you feel unclear, conflicted, or reactive?

Choose one of those questions and sit with it. Don’t rush to solve it. Notice how simply naming it changes how you show up. Leadership begins by asking better questions, not by forcing faster answers.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark return to one of the most defining realities of leadership: ambiguity. Rather than treating uncertainty as something to escape, they challenge leaders—especially middle managers—to see it as the very condition that requires leadership in the first place.

The conversation reframes ambiguity as more than just uncertainty. It often shows up as complexity, chaos, or competing priorities that lack clear answers. For middle managers, this tension is amplified as they sit between direction from above and responsibility to execute below—often without full clarity in either direction.

A key shift explored in this episode is moving from reacting to ambiguity to responding to it. Reactive leadership shows up as over-functioning, avoidance, or premature certainty. Responsive leadership, on the other hand, requires self-awareness, clarity of principles, and the ability to stay grounded even when pressure rises. This is where the concept of self-differentiation becomes essential—leaders who can remain steady without collapsing under stress or overcompensating to control outcomes.

Josh and John also emphasize that ambiguity is not something to “get through,” but something to learn from. Leaders who slow down enough to sit in uncertainty—rather than rush past it—gain deeper insight into themselves, their teams, and the situation at hand.

From there, the episode moves into practical ways to lead through ambiguity. Naming uncertainty openly creates clarity and trust. Establishing clear roles and decision rights reduces confusion. Building a culture of feedback, shared language, and real conversations ensures teams can move forward even without perfect answers. And importantly, practicing these behaviors before pressure hits helps teams respond more effectively when it does.

The conversation ultimately lands on a simple but challenging truth: leadership is not about eliminating ambiguity—it is about developing the capacity to lead within it.

00:00 – Opening and Podcast Setup Light intro and framing the return to ambiguity as a core leadership theme.

03:30 – What Ambiguity Really Is Defining ambiguity, complexity, and chaos—and how they show up in leadership.

06:00 – Why Leaders Struggle with Uncertainty The instinct to rush to clarity versus learning to sit in the unknown.

09:00 – The Unique Pressure on Middle Managers Leading with incomplete information while still driving execution.

12:30 – Respond vs. React Self-differentiation and how leaders avoid over-functioning, avoidance, or control.

18:00 – Naming Ambiguity to Create Clarity Why acknowledging uncertainty builds trust and alignment.

25:00 – Building Systems That Reduce Confusion Roles, decision rights, and creating structure inside ambiguity.

30:00 – Culture, Feedback, and Communication How shared language and real conversations help teams navigate uncertainty.

36:00 – Practicing Leadership Before It’s Needed Building muscle memory so teams are ready when ambiguity hits.

39:00 – Closing Reflections and Application Why ambiguity is not something to escape—but something to use.

Ambiguity is not a temporary phase—it is a constant condition of leadership.

Strong leaders respond to uncertainty with intention rather than reacting emotionally.

Self-differentiation allows leaders to stay grounded under pressure without overcorrecting.

Naming ambiguity openly creates alignment and reduces hidden tension.

Clear roles and decision rights eliminate unnecessary confusion.

A culture of feedback and shared language strengthens teams in uncertain moments.

The best leaders don’t avoid ambiguity—they build the capacity to lead through it.

Choose one situation this week where you feel unclear, uncertain, or under pressure. Instead of rushing to solve it, pause and name the ambiguity—first for yourself, then for your team if appropriate. Ask: what do we know, what don’t we know, and what principles will guide us forward? Practice responding with intention rather than reacting for relief.

Concept of self-differentiated leadership (Bowen Family Systems) Failure of Nerve (Edwin Friedman)