Attribution is broken. Email gets too much credit. And fake out-of-home ads? They're everywhere.

On this episode of Beyond the Billboard, host Charlie Riley and co-host Greg Wise sit down with Jay Schwedelson for an unfiltered look at what's working (and what's not) across marketing channels today. Jay, known for his email marketing expertise and outspoken industry takes, doesn't hold back.

They explore how internal infighting over marketing attribution has led to budget brawls, why email only closes the deal because brand already did the work, and how brands are misusing performance metrics. From holdout testing to skydiving stunts at virtual events, Jay makes the case that trust—not tracking—is the real metric to watch.

Plus, they get into how out-of-home has evolved beyond Times Square, and why modern marketers need to stop playing safe and start thinking creatively—even when budgets get tight.

Jay Schwedelson is the founder of SubjectLine.com and leads Outcome Media, a 100-person demand gen agency in South Florida. He also runs GURU Media Hub, which produces large-scale virtual events and podcasts in the marketing space. Known for causing “some trouble” in the email world, Jay's insights and bold takes make him one of the most visible voices in the industry.

• Why Jay says attribution is “total garbage” and how internal budget politics drive flawed thinking
• How holdout groups can expose false performance signals in email marketing
• The performance marketing trap: chasing dashboards instead of building trust
• Out-of-home as a powerful tool for account-based marketing and B2B sales
• Jay's reaction to Times Square bias and what out-of-home really looks like today
• Using audience data to map campaigns around office HQs and event venues
• The rise of fake out-of-home ads and why IRL still wins
• Creative formats—from street teams to mobile trucks to skydiving at virtual events
• Why uncertainty is killing marketing experimentation—and what smart brands should do instead
• The hidden opportunity as loyalty drops and switching behavior spikes

• SubjectLine.com
• GuruConference.com
• Nudge by Richard Thaler
• SampleABox.com

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving...

Feeling the pressure to deliver short-term results, while knowing brand matters more than ever? Join hosts Charlie Riley and Greg Wise as they talk with Kathleen Booth, who brings the perspective of a startup marketer and agency founder turned SVP of Marketing and Growth at Pavilion. Kathleen shares her journey from international development to leading growth in B2B tech and describes the constant tension between brand and demand generation. She reveals why marketers are “crying out for understanding and help,” how AI and generative search are making brand investments more crucial, and how creative out-of-home and “ambush marketing” tactics can punch above their weight—even with a scrappy budget. Listeners hear candid takes on why marketers feel underappreciated, why brand is both a long- and short-term investment, and how the smartest brands are zigging while others zag, from urinal screens to subway takeovers.

Kathleen Booth is the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Growth at Pavilion. Her path started in international development consulting with USAID and the World Bank before shifting to marketing through agency ownership and startup leadership. Kathleen was an early HubSpot partner, built and sold a national agency, and has held in-house roles in B2B tech. She joined Pavilion as a member in 2019 and now leads its marketing, bringing both founder experience and a customer’s perspective to the role. Kathleen Booth on LinkedIn

• The real meaning of “earning the right” to invest in brand (and why that’s reality for most marketers)
• Marketers “crying out for understanding and help”—anxiety, burnout, and the divide between brand and demand
• Why AI and generative search optimization are making brand investment more important (brand as a proxy for trustworthiness)
• Classic marketers vs. “heads of sales who are now heads of marketing” and how that changes company focus
• Data and “proof in the pudding” as the way to earn internal buy-in for brand
• Case study: How Six Sense built loyalty and differentiated in a crowded market through community, events, and brand
• “Ambush marketing” with urinal screens at Inbound—turning a $300 stunt into major buzz
• Scrappy out-of-home tactics: sidewalk graffiti, projection art, branded petty cabs, and subway takeovers
• Out-of-home isn’t just for big companies—how B2B marketers can use small budgets to stand out
• The power of cross-pollination—how B2C, D2C, and nonprofit experience drives creativity in B2B

• Pavilion
• Six Sense (referenced as a brand case study)
• HubSpot (referenced, no URL stated)
• Scrappy ABM
• CXL (referenced via Pep Laya, no URL stated)
• Kathleen Booth on LinkedIn

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first...

Welcome to episode 14 of Beyond the Billboard, hosted by Greg Wise and Charlie Riley. In this episode, Greg and Charlie are joined by Elaine Zelby, who describes her background as “extremely random and non-linear,” sharing insights from her journey through engineering, enterprise software, Slack, venture capital, and now co-founding Tofu. Elaine opens up about why titles are “dumb,” how brand means “planting a stake in the ground,” and what it really takes for marketers to define their identity in a crowded landscape. The conversation explores how marketing roles have shifted, why performance marketing alone no longer works, and what brand means in a time when “everyone is coping with change.” Elaine’s hands-on stories cover narrowing your target audience, building a platform versus a point solution, and the importance of integrated campaigns, omnichannel experiences, and company-wide consistency. This episode is filled with real-world examples, from DocuSign’s beginnings in commercial real estate to HubSpot’s jeans-and-t-shirt energy, plus tactical advice on sales incentives and brand alignment that you can hear directly from the transcript.

Elaine Zelby is the co-founder and CRO of Tofu. Previously, she worked in enterprise software, led enterprise marketing at Slack, and spent five years as a partner at Signal Fire, a venture capital firm focused on artificial intelligence and software. Elaine shares that she once listed her LinkedIn title as “Chief Spear Fisher Woman” because, as she says, “titles are dumb,” and describes her approach as non-linear and defined by “no North Star.” Connect with Elaine on LinkedIn.

• Why “brand is intentional” and the importance of defining what you want to be known for
• The pitfalls of skipping the “who” and how to narrow your ICP over time
• Real stories: Tofu’s journey, DocuSign’s path from commercial real estate to horizontal software
• How brand shows up in consistent employee experience and customer touchpoints
• Why not every company should focus on brand marketing—and which personas care most
• Incentives and comp structures that actually align sales, marketing, and SDR teams with the buyer
• The role of integrated campaigns, omnichannel tactics, and out-of-home in brand building
• How negative buyer experiences become “negative deposits” in your brand bank
• Concrete airport out-of-home ideas for targeting high-frequency travelers and company events

• Tofu HQ
• Elaine Zelby on LinkedIn
• Scrappy ABM
• Mention of companies and platforms: DocuSign, Slack, HubSpot, Salesforce, Signal Fire, McKesson, Fannie Mae, Colliers, Gong, McKinsey, Deloitte, Accenture, Wipro, Aptio, OpenAI

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that...

A new era is unfolding in brand marketing as Greg Wise and Charlie Riley sit down with Rob Biederman of Asymmetric. As digital marketing becomes crowded and returns diminish, Rob reveals why B2B and B2C brands are rediscovering the real-world impact of out-of-home strategies. The conversation traces Rob’s experience as co-founder of Catalent, his perspective as an investor, and the partnership that brought him to OneScreen. Listeners hear firsthand why repeat buy behavior and low customer satisfaction drew Rob to the fragmented world of billboards—and what it takes to measure true ROI in the absence of digital tracking.

From pinpointing the right inventory for ABM, to the unexpected effectiveness of brand recall in the wild, Rob breaks down how marketers can defend, prove, and scale offline channels. He shares why out-of-home isn’t just for “alcoholic beverages and concerts,” but a critical lever for B2B brands targeting decision makers. The episode closes with Rob’s tactical advice for those looking to break free of online performance ceilings and create omnichannel marketing that gets noticed—and remembered.

Rob Biederman is Managing Partner at Asymmetric, an early-stage venture firm with a presence in New York City, San Francisco, and Boston. Before founding Asymmetric, Rob co-founded and was co-CEO of Catalent Technologies, a company enabling frictionless talent deployment, and currently serves as its chairman. His experience includes roles at Goldman Sachs and Bain Capital. Rob is also a Harvard Business School Executive Fellow and the author of “Re-Imagining Work: Strategies to Disrupt Talent, Lead Change, and Win with a Flexible Workforce.”

Rob’s LinkedIn

• The three phases of Rob Biederman’s career and what brought him to OneScreen
• Why out-of-home stood out for Catalent’s ABM and the challenges of buying at scale
• How digital marketing channels became “over-optimized” and why brands are returning to offline
• The power of scarcity and attention in out-of-home media
• How B2B brands are using out-of-home for brand recall and ABM
• What marketers should know about testing, tracking, and proving ROI in offline campaigns
• Tactical approaches for selling out-of-home strategies internally
• Why omnichannel and offline-first campaigns are gaining momentum

• Catalent Technologies
• Asymmetric
• Clear Channel
• Outfront
• Harvard Business School
• Book: “Re-Imagining Work: Strategies to Disrupt Talent, Lead Change, and Win with a Flexible Workforce”

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

Aaron Keller didn’t hold back. In this episode, Beyond the Billboard co-hosts Charlie Riley and Greg Wise sit down with the Capsule co-founder to dissect the human and economic layers of brand. Aaron lays out a philosophy grounded in the idea that “brands are living members of our community”—containers of trust and meaning that shape culture and behavior. The conversation touches everything from billboard placement in Maplewood, Minnesota to the strategic suspension of merino wool products by Patagonia. He explores what happens when brands try to be everything to everyone, and why too much focus on bottom-of-funnel tactics can trigger the marketing equivalent of a restraining order. This episode is loaded with stories, sharp metaphors, and marketing reality checks from one of the most thoughtful minds in branding.

Aaron Keller is the co-founder of Capsule, a special projects agency based in Minneapolis. Capsule works with brands like Patagonia, Hydro Flask, and QuickTrip, offering research-driven design and brand strategy. Aaron is also the author of The Physics of Brand, a columnist for Twin Cities Business, and describes himself as a “curious investor.”

🔗 Aaron Keller on LinkedIn

• Why “a brand is a container of trust and meaning”
• The social role of trust—and what happens when brands lose it
• How Patagonia handled a global wool sourcing controversy
• Packaging as “a billboard you can pick up” and the high stakes of in-store design
• How Capsule used mobile research to inform Patagonia’s packaging revamp
• The tension between brand and demand gen, and how out-of-home fits into the mix
• Cultural fatigue from bottom-funnel bombardment and “marketing restraining orders”
• Launching a nightclub brand in suburban Minnesota using strategic billboards
• The hidden influence of Red Bull’s street teams and why caffeine is a creative performance enhancer

• The Physics of Brand – Book by Capsule
• Capsule – Aaron’s agency
• Liquid Death – Referenced as a cultural case study
• Red Bull – Mentioned for experiential and brand execution
• Dinner Bell – A consumer-facing dairy brand from a supplier cooperative
• MPI (Associated Milk Producers Inc.) – Parent of Dinner Bell
• Tropicana, SunChips – Referenced in packaging redesign context

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

What happens when a creative leader builds a system that powers 30,000 web pages—without a single developer? Charlie Riley welcomes Dmitry Shamis, former global head of brand and creative at HubSpot and now co-founder of the brand agency OhSnap! They unpack why creative is making a comeback, why brand shouldn’t be a bottleneck, and how to build systems that scale with your team.

Dmitry shares how his team at HubSpot introduced modular brand tools, expanded Canva use across global teams, and used out of home to make bold, visible statements. He also explains why AI won’t replace creativity—it’s creativity’s best friend. If you’re navigating brand execution across channels or wondering how to think differently about your creative process, this conversation is a must.

Dmitry Shamis is the co-founder of OhSnap!, a brand agency focused on scalable brand systems. Previously the global head of creative and brand at HubSpot, Dmitry helped marketing teams navigate challenges around execution, scale, and visual identity. He started his career as an engineer and now brings systems thinking to brand development. Find him on LinkedIn at linkedin.com/in/dmitryshamis.

• Why OhSnap! focuses on brand systems, not just rebrands
• What it means for brand to enable rather than bottleneck creative teams
• The importance of adapting design to medium—transit ads vs. billboards vs. digital
• Lessons from launching HubSpot’s first out of home campaign in San Francisco
• Anecdotal signals that out of home is working (hint: text messages from friends)
• Why “brand is back” and what that means for modern marketing teams
• How AI supports, but never replaces, true creative work
• Why bad habits in digital advertising are holding teams back
• Creating time and space for creatives to do their best work
• Building scalable brand systems early to avoid downstream chaos

• OhSnap! — Dmitry's brand agency
• The Brief Creative — Dmitry’s weekly newsletter
• What's Your Process podcast — hosted by Dmitry Shamis
• LinkedIn – Dmitry Shamis
• Capsule (video tool)
• Air (digital asset management platform)
• Scrappy ABM Podcast

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

What happens when you blend creativity, strategy, and relentless execution? Greg Wise welcomes Melissa Rosenthal, Co-Founder of Outlever, to explore the real-world meaning of brand and how media and marketing collide. Melissa shares her journey from shaping BuzzFeed and Cheddar to leading marketing at ClickUp, where bold out-of-home (OOH) campaigns turned heads and drove measurable results. Listeners will hear how she negotiated prime Times Square placements, why buses became her secret weapon, and why testing, measurement, and audience context are everything. Melissa also opens up about launching Outlever, the exhaustion and exhilaration of entrepreneurship, and why her LinkedIn strategy is her own “personal billboard.”

Melissa Rosenthal is the Co-Founder of Outlever, a company transforming brands into the number one news source in their industries. Previously, Melissa served as Chief Creative Officer at ClickUp, CMO at Insight Timer, CRO at Cheddar, and VP of Creative at BuzzFeed. Named to Forbes 30 Under 30 and Business Insider’s 30 Most Creative People Under 30, Melissa has shaped some of the most recognized and fastest-growing brands.

LinkedIn

• Melissa’s early days at BuzzFeed and Cheddar and the leap to B2B SaaS
• What “brand” really means across company stages — from reputation to perception
• How out-of-home campaigns became ClickUp’s competitive advantage
• Strategic buying: negotiating Times Square ads and selecting high-visibility placements
• Measurement tactics: from aided/unaided awareness to sales team feedback
• Navigating leadership buy-in and scaling investment in brand
• The journey from ClickUp to launching Outlever — and why timing matters
• How Melissa uses LinkedIn as her personal “billboard” and inspiration from OOH in digital strategies

• Scrappy ABM Podcast
• Momentum AI
• SurveyMonkey
• ClickUp
• Outlever
• Brex
• BuzzFeed
• Cheddar
• Insight Timer

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

Brand isn’t just a logo or a marketing line item—it’s the foundation of your business. In this episode of Beyond the Billboard, host Greg Wise sits down with Bill Kenney, CEO and partner at Focus Lab, to unpack what it really means to build a brand that sticks. Drawing from 15+ years leading a B2B branding agency, Bill explains why brand is not a marketing expense, but a business pillar. He outlines how performance-only thinking creates a short-term hamster wheel, and how companies can break free by investing in identity, culture, and long-term affinity. From Series B tech startups to M&A transformations, Bill shares what signals show a company is ready for a rebrand—and what red flags say otherwise. For marketers trying to earn executive trust, this conversation is a roadmap to internal alignment and sustainable growth.

👤 Guest Bio

Bill Kenney is the CEO and partner at Focus Lab, a B2B brand agency helping high-growth startups and venture-backed companies define and express their boldest, most original selves. He brings more than 15 years of experience evolving businesses from generic design shops into strategic branding partners. Bill is also the author of Conquer Your Rebrand, which outlines Focus Lab’s full branding process for CMOs and CEOs.

👉 Connect with Bill on LinkedIn

📌 What We Cover

• Why performance marketing alone creates a rat race of short-term returns
• The evolution from creative-led marketing to finance-driven metrics—and back again
• How brand drives recruitment, internal alignment, and long-term customer affinity
• What brand really means beyond the website—"it's literally everything"
• Focus Lab’s analogy of branding as building a house, not just decorating one
• Key pain points that signal it’s time for a rebrand (e.g., M&A, growth-stage gaps)
• What happens when internal teams don’t have the time or alignment for brand work
• Real client stories from Totango, TrustedSec, and Marketo
• Why Bill thinks of LinkedIn as his own out-of-home billboard

🔗 Resources Mentioned

• Scrappy ABM Podcast
• Conquer Your Rebrand by Bill Kenney
• Focus Lab

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.