🎧 This episode of PCC Local Time is part of the APMM Series, featuring conversations with Pennsylvania’s municipal managers and leaders about the evolving practice of local government.

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In this episode of the APMM Series, produced in partnership with PCC Local Time, Nancy J. Hess and Dr. Martin Carcasson explore how local government leaders can shift from problem-solvers to systems builders. Together, they trace how small shifts in process — better questions, framing, and facilitation — can profoundly affect trust and decision-making in communities.

Dr. Martin Carcasson is a professor of Communication Studies at Colorado State University and the founding director of the Center for Public Deliberation (CPD) — a university-community partnership that helps local governments, school districts, and civic organizations improve how they talk about complex public issues.

Martin’s work draws from communication theory, social psychology, and systems thinking to design better public conversations about “wicked problems” — the issues that have no simple or permanent solutions.

He has collaborated extensively with the Kettering Foundation, the National Civic League, and the International City/County Management Association (ICMA), where he’s trained city managers and superintendents to act as deliberative systems leaders.

In his words:

“If city managers see themselves as systems leaders — deliberative systems leaders — their job is to get a sense of how this system works, and then figure out how to intervene in this system to improve it.”

Martin distinguishes debate, deliberation, and dialogue.

A live example of tough conversations and what universities can learn.

Nancy frames the skepticism many leaders have: “Do we really need all these meetings?”

Martin connects it to wicked problems and shared goals

Why we resist nuance — and how public processes often make this worse.

Surveys, individual conversations, Google Forms, and anonymous responses.

Hosts Dave Pribulka, Eden Ratliff, and Brandon Ford, are joined by Nancy Hess for a candid talk about what real change management looks like in local government. They explore how trust, timing, and human connection shape change — from labor negotiations to leadership teams to community-driven expectations.

A double header this week… be sure to check out the chat for this week’s show!

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02:00 – 10:00 - What change management really looks like: buy-in, communication, and shifting expectations.

10:00 – 18:00 - Real-world examples: labor negotiations, labor dynamics, and the conditions that make change possible.

18:00 – 25:00 - External forces: AI, community pressure, and unexpected participation.

25:00 – 33:00 - Pacing and leadership: slowing down on purpose, avoiding rushed decisions, emotional intelligence.

33:00 – 42:00 - Trust, vulnerability, and the “blockbuster questions” that unlock better decisions.

42:00 – 44:00 - Wrap-up: reflections and close.

Fresh from the ICMA Conference in Tampa, the Generation on the Rise crew dives into how to draw the line between leadership and politics. Eden reflects on his ICMA session about rebuilding trust after a $3.2 million fraud case, while Dave and Brandon unpack what it means to stay apolitical and human in a world where expectations sometimes conflict with professional ethics. From the emotional side of management to candid talk about boards, boundaries, and values, this episode captures the nuance and humor of a profession in flux. Join hosts: Dave Pribulka, Brandon Ford, Eden Ratliff.

Check out more content like this and PCC Local Time at MuniSquare@Substack.com