What does it really take for a 160-year-old brand to stay relevant in a world obsessed with shiny new fintechs, challenger banks and AI-powered everything?
In this episode of CMO Therapy, I’m joined by Joe Goldberg, Head of Brand Strategy at Santander UK, for a no-fluff, deeply human conversation about how legacy brands evolve without losing their soul.
We dig into why modern banking isn’t about shouting “we’re digital” - it’s about designing emotional experiences that make people feel confident, included and in control of their money. Joe unpacks the real battle for salience in an AI-driven future, why most brands misunderstand loyalty and how trust, tone and honesty matter more than ever when your product is invisible.
There’s also a brilliant deep dive into experiential brand design, the role of fame (hello Ant & Dec), and why anxiety (not apathy) is the real enemy of modern financial services.
As Joe puts it:
“If you’re not salient, if people don’t know you exist, you’re dead.”
If you’re a CMO navigating growth, relevance and emotional connection in a complex category… this one’s unmissable.Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

In this episode of CMO Therapy, I’m joined by Paul Taylor who held senior marketing leadership roles at firms like Swift and SS&C, to unpack one of the most misunderstood (and under-invested) growth levers in B2B: customer advocacy.
We get brutally honest about why advocacy so often gets reduced to logo slides, rushed case studies and last-minute favours for sales and why that mindset is costing marketing teams serious pipeline. Paul shares a much smarter way to think about advocacy, as a flywheel, not a campaign. When it's built on trust and peer-to-peer influence, customers will be talking about you when you’re not in the room. Love that!
We dig into how to design advocacy that feels human (not needy - we've all been there), how to spot real advocates hiding in plain sight, how to scale it without killing authenticity and how CMOs can actually measure impact beyond vanity metrics.
As Paul puts it:
“Good advocacy isn’t PR. It’s insurance for your brand in a world where trust is collapsing.”
If you want advocacy to drive growth, not just decorate your website, this one’s a must-listen.
Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

In this episode of CMO Therapy, I sit down with Michelle to talk about one of the most misunderstood (and quietly tense) relationships in the C-suite: the Chief Marketing Officer and the Chief Commercial Officer.
This conversation was sparked by a debate that really stuck with me about where marketing should sit in an organisation, especially in fast-growing or acquisition-heavy businesses. There’s a growing assumption that marketing should automatically roll into commercial and Michelle articulates, brilliantly, why that can be a problem. As she puts it, “the Chief Commercial Officer drives revenue today. The Chief Marketing Officer builds revenue for tomorrow.” That distinction alone stopped me in my tracks.
We dig into why marketing so often becomes sales support, what happens when there’s no CMO voice at the table and what “good” actually looks like when commercial and marketing work in true partnership. If you’re a CMO or marketing leader trying to move from lead factory to long-term growth engine, you’ll get a lot from this one.Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

Ever been asked “So… are you more brand or demand?” and felt your soul leave your body? Same. In this episode of CMO Therapy, I sit down with the brilliant Smita Gupta to blow up that false choice and dig into what she calls the two-speed CMO – the marketer who can deliver this quarter and build compounding growth for next year.
We get into why “brand vs demand” is the wrong question, how to stop marketing becoming a glorified service desk for sales and what it really looks like to run your function like an investment portfolio, balancing pipeline now, conversion improvement and future demand creation.
Smita shares the dashboards, metrics and language that actually land with CEOs, CFOs and CROs, plus how to position marketing as a growth engine, not a cost centre.
When it comes to demand and brand, as Smita puts it “If you only do one, you either look busy or look brilliant. Neither guarantees revenue.”
Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

In this episode of CMO Therapy, we’re diving deep into one of marketing’s most hotly debated topics: how to balance brand investment with the constant pressure to deliver more leads. I’m joined by the fabulous Corin Camenisch, who’s built her career across product, brand, and growth, making her the perfect guide through the chaos.
We get into what really happens when your performance engine starts to plateau, how to structure brand experiments that prove value fast and the early signals that show your brand work is actually shifting the needle (long before revenue hits). We talk creative that truly lifts, internal storytelling, mapping your internal “audiences” and how to pitch brand in a language your CFO will actually understand.
And Corin sums up the heart of the episode beautifully when she says:
“Instead of being like ‘I want a big brand awareness campaign’, it’s better to say: why don’t we run an experiment to help decrease your CAC… that’s when people start to listen.”
If you’re a marketing leader trying to defend brand budget and make your performance engine more efficient, this episode is packed with firepower.
Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

Sales and marketing - same team, right? So why do so many companies still treat them like distant cousins who only talk at family reunions? In this episode of CMO Therapy, I chat with Michael Treacy, Director of Marketing and Business Development at OpenPayd, about the art (and occasional chaos) of getting sales and marketing truly aligned.
We dig into why alignment isn’t just about passing leads over the fence, but about shared goals, mutual trust and actually speaking the same customer language.
Michael puts it perfectly: “The moment you hand over that MQL and say, ‘my job’s done,’ that’s when it all starts falling down.”
From practical ways to tighten collaboration, to how AI tools like Gong are transforming the feedback loop between teams, this one’s a must-listen for any marketing leader tired of the sales vs. marketing tug-of-war.Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

What happens when everyone in your company suddenly becomes a marketer?

In this episode of CMO Therapy Lucy chats with Sam Schrager, CMO at BCB Group, about what it really takes to keep the engine running when every department, from HR to Product to the CEO’s office, has “just one little idea.”

Sam opens up about the chaos of juggling endless requests, managing expectations and keeping marketing strategic (not just reactive). We dive into how she’s learned to push back with confidence, educate the business on what marketing really does and build trust across teams… all while keeping the energy alive.

“I’ve got tougher over the last six months. I’m not afraid to push back and ask why are we doing this? What’s the actual objective?”

If you’ve ever felt like the office dumping ground for ideas, this one’s your therapy session.

Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

Think your content and campaigns are strong? Think again. Because if you’re not nailing distribution, they’re probably falling short.
In this episode of CMO Therapy, Lucy sits down with Yoann Pavy, CMO at AI Apply, to unpack the hardest, most under-discussed part of marketing - distribution. Inspired by that killer quote, “A bad product with great distribution makes money. A great product with no distribution dies quietly,” this conversation dives deep into why distribution is now the ultimate growth advantage.
Yoann explains how social platforms like TikTok have flipped the playbook, where every post is its own campaign and why marketers need to think distribution first if they want real results. Expect spicy takes, practical advice and a few reality checks for any marketing leader still obsessing over ideas instead of reach.
As Yoann says: “The idea is already there - you just have to look, copy what works and execute.”