What does it really take for a 160-year-old brand to stay relevant in a world obsessed with shiny new fintechs, challenger banks and AI-powered everything?
In this episode of CMO Therapy, I’m joined by Joe Goldberg, Head of Brand Strategy at Santander UK, for a no-fluff, deeply human conversation about how legacy brands evolve without losing their soul.
We dig into why modern banking isn’t about shouting “we’re digital” - it’s about designing emotional experiences that make people feel confident, included and in control of their money. Joe unpacks the real battle for salience in an AI-driven future, why most brands misunderstand loyalty and how trust, tone and honesty matter more than ever when your product is invisible.
There’s also a brilliant deep dive into experiential brand design, the role of fame (hello Ant & Dec), and why anxiety (not apathy) is the real enemy of modern financial services.
As Joe puts it:
“If you’re not salient, if people don’t know you exist, you’re dead.”
If you’re a CMO navigating growth, relevance and emotional connection in a complex category… this one’s unmissable.Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

In this episode of CMO Therapy, I’m joined by Paul Taylor who held senior marketing leadership roles at firms like Swift and SS&C, to unpack one of the most misunderstood (and under-invested) growth levers in B2B: customer advocacy.
We get brutally honest about why advocacy so often gets reduced to logo slides, rushed case studies and last-minute favours for sales and why that mindset is costing marketing teams serious pipeline. Paul shares a much smarter way to think about advocacy, as a flywheel, not a campaign. When it's built on trust and peer-to-peer influence, customers will be talking about you when you’re not in the room. Love that!
We dig into how to design advocacy that feels human (not needy - we've all been there), how to spot real advocates hiding in plain sight, how to scale it without killing authenticity and how CMOs can actually measure impact beyond vanity metrics.
As Paul puts it:
“Good advocacy isn’t PR. It’s insurance for your brand in a world where trust is collapsing.”
If you want advocacy to drive growth, not just decorate your website, this one’s a must-listen.
Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence

In this episode of CMO Therapy, I sit down with Michelle to talk about one of the most misunderstood (and quietly tense) relationships in the C-suite: the Chief Marketing Officer and the Chief Commercial Officer.
This conversation was sparked by a debate that really stuck with me about where marketing should sit in an organisation, especially in fast-growing or acquisition-heavy businesses. There’s a growing assumption that marketing should automatically roll into commercial and Michelle articulates, brilliantly, why that can be a problem. As she puts it, “the Chief Commercial Officer drives revenue today. The Chief Marketing Officer builds revenue for tomorrow.” That distinction alone stopped me in my tracks.
We dig into why marketing so often becomes sales support, what happens when there’s no CMO voice at the table and what “good” actually looks like when commercial and marketing work in true partnership. If you’re a CMO or marketing leader trying to move from lead factory to long-term growth engine, you’ll get a lot from this one.Music clip by Filo Starquez, Divergence