Ken Kesey’s sketch and the album cover; Faye and “the black dog and the wandering boy”

Larry McMurtry: Stanford, rare books, $100 book reviews, single fatherhood

First guitar from his dad, three chords from his mom; Johnny Cash, Kristofferson, Norman Blake

Drop C tuning, “Melinda,” “Saint Mary of the Woods”

Writing backwards from dialogue; “12 O’Clock Whistle” and his grandmother’s words

Making records these days so there’s a reason to tour

Live: “Sons of the Second Sons” with BettySoo

The red dress in Tennessee; music is politics

Immigration, detention, and a disagreement about reaching the other side

Thomas Austin is a Nashville singer-songwriter who calls his music theo-folk. A pastor's kid from Maryland, he spent years as a worship leader, and now goes to an Anglican church. His song "Normal Church" went viral on Instagram and brought a comment section full of theology arguments he'd rather not have. He and Korby talk worship music, metaphor, doubt, and whether emotion is a lesser kind of truth. Thomas plays "Just Emotion" and "Normal Church" live in the studio.

00:00 How "Normal Church" went viral

04:40 Growing up a pastor's kid: "Coldplay concert followed by TED Talk"

13:00 Korby on praise and worship music, and five years at Mass without converting

27:54 Christianity's discomfort with metaphor, and songs that write themselves

Mid-episode: "Just Emotion" (live)

39:50 The altar call, the wedding day, and Peter on the beach

47:26 Faith without feeling, and raising a daughter to know the stories

1:01:59 Pickleball as a spiritual discipline

1:15:42 Christian Wiman, Dostoevsky, and suffering without answers

Closing: "Normal Church" (live)

Mentioned: C.S. Lewis (The Great Divorce, The Silver Chair, The Problem of Pain), Christian Wiman (My Bright Abyss), Wendell Berry (Jayber Crow), Nikos Kazantzakis (Zorba the Greek), Dostoevsky (The Brothers Karamazov), G.K. Chesterton, Kierkegaard, George MacDonald, the Grateful Dead's "Friend of the Devil," and The Rabbit Room.

Korby talks with journalist and author Jordan Ritter Conn about his new book American Men, interviewing 50+ men about masculinity, the four men whose stories made the book (Ryan, Gideon, Joseph, Nate), the process of getting men to be vulnerable, the permission structure concept, his first day at UC Berkeley journalism school, the cancer scare he hoped would get him out, the notepad as superpower, the Scotland trip with his dad, the impact of the book on his own friendships, Tom Wolfe, narrative journalism, the literary market and male readers, video games as time thief, Bowling Alone, male loneliness, the hardball league, and getting together in a room.