What happens when we avoid the hard conversations? Dr. Julie Pham, Founder/CEO of Curiosity Based and author of "Seven Forms of Respect," shares the messy truth about when she got it wrong—and what changed when she finally chose directness over avoidance.

Julie opens up about quitting a job through manufactured martyrdom rather than honesty, workplace gossip that spectacularly backfired, and the uncomfortable question that kept her up at night. When her boss told her to "let it go," she trusted her gut instead—and ended up modeling the behavior her entire team needed.

Drawing on her parents' journey fleeing Vietnam by boat, Julie reminds us that courage is relative. And sometimes the bravest thing we can do is slow down, stop judging ourselves and others, and have the direct conversation—even when it takes months to get there.

Key Insights:

• Courage doesn't have to be immediate. Julie took months to process before having a difficult conversation. "Sometimes our expectations of having to respond right away actually gets us to maybe respond in a way that is just more reactive than thoughtful."
• You can't outsource your courage. When Julie complained about her boss to a peer, that peer spread her words around the organization. "I can't expect other people to fight my battles for me. I can't expect other people to save me."
• Trust your gut over bad advice. Against her boss's advice to ignore an uncomfortable situation, Julie had direct conversations and apologized. Her boss later told her: "You actually modeled the behavior that we should have here."
• Building relationships requires risk. "We don't know how they're going to take it. All I can do is stay true to myself and maybe that'll work and we'll have a deeper relationship and for other people it's gonna isolate us even more."

Connect with Julie:

• LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliepham2/
• Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/juliephamphd
• Website: https://curiositybased.cominstagram

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who would benefit from Suzanne’s story

Stay courageous.

#83: The Courage Effect: 2025 Season Finale

Suzanne reflects on this season's powerful conversations and asks: What are you waiting for permission to do?

Season Themes:

Speaking the Unspeakable From menopause (Jill Angelo) to family secrets (Susan Liu) to standing in gaps others won't (Andrea Anderson) — courage means saying what needs to be said.

The Courage to Bear Witness Ashley Gilbertson documented Officer Eugene Goodman at the Capitol on January 6th, reminding us we can't look away from hard truths.

Self-Compassion as Strategy Massimo Backus: Being kind to yourself isn't soft — it's strategic. Stop wearing leadership costumes and show up authentically.

Permission Over Perfection We're better at giving others permission than ourselves. What are you tolerating that you no longer want to?

Standout Quotes:

Andrea Anderson: "I've always been comfortable standing in the gap that others don't want to stand in."

Pelumi Nubi: "Is this fear mine, was it given to me, or do I need to give it back?"

Susan Liu: "Sometimes the stories we're not allowed to tell are exactly the ones that the world needs to hear."

Three Questions:

1. What am I waiting for permission to do?
2. Who am I waiting to tell me it's okay?
3. What am I tolerating that I no longer want to?

The Call:

Stop apologizing. Stand in the gap. Bear witness. Take risks. Give yourself permission to be imperfect, human, and fully you.

Let's stop discharging pain through blame and create real change — by speaking up, telling stories, and showing what's in the world.

And thank you Stephen Pressfield for the inspiration: Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants To Be

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who would benefit from our stories

Stay courageous.

#82: In this raw and personal mini episode, Suzanne opens up about a month of grief and disruption — losing her aunt to aggressive cancer and having a massive tree crash through her dining room skylight on her wedding anniversary.

She reflects on what it means to feel safe and secure when life reminds us how fragile everything is. This episode is an invitation to examine our own lives: What are we taking for granted? Who do we need to call? What truly matters?

She invites us to consider:

• What are you taking for granted right now?
• What gives you real security beyond physical structures?
• Who needs to hear from you?
• What can you let go of as we head toward year-end?
• Where do you need to be more present?

A Note from Suzanne:

This episode is raw and unpolished — and that's intentional. Sometimes courage is just about showing up, being honest, and saying "this is where I am." Thank you for your patience and grace.

The final episode of this season drops in two weeks.

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who would benefit from Suzanne’s story

#81: Andrea Anderson, CEO of Girl Scouts of Western Washington, discusses the courage to stand where others won't, lead authentically, and embrace not fitting in. From sex education to running one of the country's most progressive Girl Scout councils, Andrea shares why being an outsider is her superpower.

Key Topics:

• Standing in uncomfortable spaces and calling out injustice
• Why "we've always done it this way" is never acceptable
• Girl Scout cookie sales as the largest girl-led entrepreneurial program on the planet
• Sex education, body autonomy, and the power of language
• The beach epiphany: embracing not fitting into systems not designed for you

Memorable Quotes:

"What better time to raise dragon slayers than in the time of dragons."

"I stopped apologizing for my very existence years ago."

"The scam is structural and they didn't make it with me in mind."

"Bravery sometimes is just getting up and out of bed."

Key Takeaways:

1. Courage isn't always dramatic — sometimes it's just showing up authentically
2. Refuse to fit into systems not designed for you
3. Create space for people to bring their whole selves to work
4. Stop telling people to "leave their shit at the door"

Resources Mentioned:

• Andrea's TEDx Talk on respectful body language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xJgEetiGh4
• Girl Scouts of Western Washington: https://www.girlscoutsww.org/en/join.html?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19271251657&gbraid=0AAAAAD1syUTY6XykWzGD5Zt7QY--jM6he&gclid=CjwKCAjwx-zHBhBhEiwA7Kjq6-vcRm-5gTCflmon6BcadKbw-Zu2qQTzHbO79fcoRSymsZsGAHwMPxoCUEEQAvD_BwE

Connect with Andrea via LinkedIn at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-anderson-61215232/

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who would benefit from Andrea’s story

#80: Massimo Backus, author of "Human First, Leader Second," shares his transformative journey from high-achieving "sage on the stage" to authentic leader through the power of self-compassion.

Key Moments:

The Wake-Up Call - Massimo was running global leadership development when devastating 360 feedback revealed he was defensive, didn't create psychological safety, and was even described as a bully - the opposite of his intentions.

The Epiphany - After surrendering to the Hoffman Process, Massimo experienced his first moment of unconditional self-love in the woods - realizing he'd spent his life hiding doubts and imposter syndrome behind a "leadership costume."

The Power of the Pause - Why rushing from one role to the next keeps us stuck - and how the "neutral zone" allows for healing and repatterning.

Powerful Quotes:

"We wake up most days trying to be someone we already are."

"Courage is the small things: taking good care of yourself, setting boundaries, asking for help."

"I had to fully surrender - give up all the coping mechanisms and parts of my identity that on paper worked."

Key Takeaways:

• Self-compassion isn't soft - it takes courage to confront yourself authentically
• Internal validation is sustainable; external validation keeps you off-balance
• Emotions are data points, not definitions
• Transition periods are opportunities, not just gaps to fill quickly

Resources:

• Human First, Leader Second by Massimo Bacchus
• Brené Brown's Atlas of the Heart
• Dr. Kristin Neff's self-compassion research
• The Hoffman Process

Connect with Massimo:

• Website: mass@massimobackus.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/massimo-backus/
• Instagram: @massismoleadership

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a 5-star review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who would benefit from Massimo’s story

#79: When Susan Lieu's mother died from a botched cosmetic surgery at age 11, her Vietnamese immigrant family did what they knew how to do: they never spoke about it again. For three decades, the silence persisted. But when Susan faced the question "How do I become a mother if I never knew my own?" everything changed.

In this deeply moving conversation, Susan Lieu – a Vietnamese American author, playwright, and performer – shares her extraordinary journey from Microsoft cybersecurity professional to acclaimed solo performer and author. With zero theater training, she wrote and starred in a 65-minute show playing 15 family members, performed 60 times to 7,000 people while pregnant, and wrote the memoir "The Manicurist's Daughter" — an Apple Book Pick and NPR Best Book of 2024.

Susan's story is about the courage to break generational silence, the power of becoming your family's archive keeper, and discovering that sometimes the stories we're forbidden to tell are exactly the ones the world needs to hear.

Key Topics Discussed:

Family Secrets & Silence

• How trauma and cultural differences create walls of silence
• The cost of keeping family secrets vs. the courage to tell the truth

Intergenerational Trauma & Healing

• Understanding her parents' escape from Vietnam as boat people
• Learning to forgive a father shaped by war and loss

Body Image

• Unpacking the message "if you get fat, no one will love you"
• Reframing relationship with her body: "My body is my mother's last gift to me"

Truth & Memory

• How different family members hold different versions of the same story
• The power of archiving family history for future generations

Notable Quotes:

"For me to go on a quest to avenge my mother's death, to track down the killer, to bring justice to our family, but really to know her was this confrontation of being courageous in my own family."

"My body is my mother's last gift to me. When I say I hate my body, that means you're saying you hate where you come from."

"Sometimes the stories we're not allowed to tell are exactly the ones the world needs to hear."

"In activating this courage, we will learn something new. It'll give us new information to keep pivoting, to keep inching toward what we think will give us our self-actualization."

Connect with Susan:

• Website: https://www.susanlieu.me/
• Instagram: @SusanLieu
• Substack: "Live Like You're Mortal" https://susanlieu.substack.com/
• Podcast: "Model Minority Moms" https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/model-minority-moms/id1565085683
• Book: "The Manicurist's Daughter" (available in print and audiobook) https://www.amazon.com/Manicurists-Daughter-Memoir-Susan-Lieu/dp/1250835046
• TEDx Talk: "How to Make Peace with Your Belly Fat" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al0Jw_9b06Y

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

Support the Show:

If this episode resonated with you:

• Leave a 5-star review on your podcast platform
• Share this episode with someone who needs to hear Susan's story
• Purchase "The Manicurist's Daughter" and leave a review
• Follow Susan on social media and support her work

#78: In this conversation, Lisa Fain discusses the concept of developmental networks and the role of courage in creating intentional learning relationships. She emphasizes the importance of community, connection, and reciprocity in mentoring relationships, and how these elements contribute to personal and professional growth. Lisa also shares insights on navigating career transitions, the significance of identity, and the power of intentional connections in fostering a supportive environment for learning and development.

Key Topics:

• Developmental networks - intentional learning relationships for growth
• The courage to ask - being the first mover and requesting what you need
• Effective mentoring elements - learning, reciprocity, and co-creation
• Common failures - "pair and pray" programs without structure
• Career transitions - leveraging networks during job searches
• Identity's role - how our lens shapes mentoring experiences

Standout Quotes:

"Impact isn't built alone."

"Everything is figureoutable, but everything is not figureoutable on your own."

"If you're gonna share your wisdom, make sure it ends with a question mark and not with a period."

Chapters:

00:00 Exploring Developmental Networks and Courage

10:06 The Importance of Community and Connection

19:59 Understanding Mentoring Relationships

30:12 Navigating Career Transitions and Identity

39:52 The Power of Intentional Connections

Key Takeaways:

1. Structure matters - Successful mentoring requires intentional frameworks
2. Mentees drive learning - Come prepared with specific goals
3. Reciprocity is real - Everyone has something valuable to offer
4. Think beyond hierarchy - Peer and reverse mentoring work too
5. Avoid "brain picking" - Be specific about what you want to learn

Get in touch with Lisa Fain:

• Website: http://www.centerformentoring.com
• TEDx Talk: "The Power of Intentional Connections in Your Career": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ4JEvEsO2c
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisazfain

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about

#77: George shares how a chance coffee shop conversation led to uprooting his family (three kids, ages 11-13) and moving to a small Spanish village for what became a two-year adventure. From navigating bureaucracy and language barriers to watching his children courageously walk into Spanish schools, this episode explores what it takes to "run toward the roar" of our biggest fears.

Key Highlights:

• The Catalyst: A networking conversation that became life-changing advice
• Facing Fears: Professional uncertainty, family impact, and financial risk
• Reality Check: The challenging first months and questioning their decision
• Kid Courage: How children adapt and teach resilience to their parents
• Unexpected Benefits: How the experience prepared them for COVID and virtual work

Memorable Quotes:

"What right do I have to be coaching these people if I'm constantly comfortable and haven't done much of a big change in my life?"

"Courage is not the absence of fear, it's having fear there but working your way through it."

"Your kids can do it. You can do it. And the adventure is there waiting for you."

Perfect For:

• Anyone considering a major life change
• Parents wondering how families navigate uncertainty
• People looking for courage to face their fears
• Those interested in international living experiences

Key Takeaway:

Sometimes the most transformative experiences come from running toward what scares us most - and our children might just be our best teachers in courage.

Find more information about George Brewster at:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgebrewster/
• Gimbal Systems website: https://gimbalsystems.com/

Connect with The Courage Effect:

• Host: Suzanne Weller / Weller Collaboration
• Website: https://wellercollaboration.com/thecourageeffect
• Social Media: https://linktr.ee/suzanneweller
• Substack: Sign up for Suzanne’s Reimagine Growth newsletter at https://suzanneweller.substack.com/about