Moxie Marlinspike founded Signal, the nonprofit privacy messenger used by millions. He’s now building Confer, a fully private, end-to-end encrypted AI chat. This conversation covers everything.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro 01:09 Building Physical World Projects Centered on Experiences07:43 Tales from Hitchhiking15:04 The Birth of Signal22:23 Privacy in the Digital Age31:21 Introducing Confer: Private AI Chat37:17 Generative AI and Developer Responsibility38:21 Encryption and Cryptography: A Historical Perspective39:15 Skepticism Towards Crypto41:24 The Impact of Self-Publishing and Cancel Culture44:01 Imagining MoxieLand49:41 Why Do Conspiracy Theories Exist58:00 Signal Gate1:02:30 Limits of Solo Ambitions1:05:09 Solving Aging1:09:00 Moxie’s Next Physical World Project FOLLOW:Follow MoxieSign up for ConferFollow SabrinaPlease support this show by subscribing!

Ken Liu: Renowned sci-fi author of The Paper Menagerie, The Hidden Girl and Other Stories, and his new book All That We See or Seem; producer of Pantheon; futurist who works with world governments to prepare for what’s ahead.

TIMESTAMPS:

(0:00) Introduction

(1:41) Mechanism vs meaning: what science explains vs what stories explain

(5:47) What is consciousness, really?

(6:42) Psychedelics and the mystery of the mind

(7:55) Can intelligence exist without consciousness?

(12:10) How mind-uploading might actually work (and the Singularity)

(19:15 — Falling in love with AI - why “imaginary companions” aren’t new

(23:40) Modern day myths around romantic love

(27:15) Preservation vs. transformation of humanity

(32:37) When technical skill disappears: what is craft?

(40:00) When using AI actually makes us feel more human

(41:05) Writing, imagination, and “All That We See or Seem”

(47:35) Dreams, reality, and how we know what’s real

(54:45) Privacy in an age of digital selves

(58:03) Data, the commons, and how knowledge should be shared

Follow Ken: https://x.com/kyliu99

Buy his new book All That We See or Seem : https://www.amazon.com/All-That-Seem-Julia-Novel/dp/1668083175

• When will AI become conscious and how would we even know if it did? We talk about the decoupling of intelligence and consciousness in today's LLMs, and the ethical questions in regulating models.

• Ken walks me through a thought experiment to understand the singularity: what uploading our minds might actually look like, a theme explored in his Netflix series Pantheon. If we replace our minds piece by piece with silicon, at what point do “we” disappear?
• In the age of AI, when many technical skills are made obsolete, who are the experts of craft?
• We explore why falling in love with AI may be grounded in our religious history, and is an act of falling in love with our own reflection.
• We discuss how phones have killed daydreaming and access to the collective unconscious, and the mysteries of psychedelics, natural intelligence, and the universe at large.
• “We are willing to die for the sake of a story. In fact, it’s the only thing humans have ever willingly died for.” Most of human life, Ken argues, has two levels of explanation: 1.Evolution & 2.Stories — the way we make sense of the world and find meaning in it.