In this episode, Julien Devaureix speaks with Nora Bateson, filmmaker, writer, and president of theInternational Bateson Institute. Together they explore how to navigate today’s complex world through systems thinking, relational approaches, and Nora’s concept of warm data. Drawing from her book Combining, Nora shares why solutions can’t be isolated, how identity and intergenerational living shape our future, and why cultivating an ecology of communication is key to creating authentic hope and thriving life.

Episode timestamps

00:00 Introduction & Nora’s background; perceiving interdependencies in living systems

04:14 The “meadow” metaphor and the relational nature of complexity

16:59 Problems of reductionism in education and society

34:25 Excerpts from Combining: the idea of combining vs. combined

43:26 Rethinking problems and solutions; cultivating an ecology of communication

54:02 Double binds, transcontextual issues, and aiming for possibility & vitality

01:00:50 Warm data and the lost art of intergenerational living

01:06::06 False hope vs. real hope; culture and unexpected change

01:10:05 The role of art, weirdness, and creativity in shaping the future

01:15:23 Closing poem Mama Now: reflections on parenting, integrity, and uncertainty

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In this episode, Julien speaks with Steffen Müller, head of Salesforce's Sustainability & Transformation Advisory team, about how companies can align technology, data, and AI with their ecological goals. From carbon accounting to AI’s environmental impact, they explore how sustainability is becoming a core business strategy—not just a compliance issue.

Episode timestamps
00:00 Introduction – The shifting context for business and Stefan Müller’s journey

02:50 Why some companies are backpedaling on sustainability—and why others are not

05:30 Corporate ecological transition: Where are we really?

07:30 Finance and nature: Understanding the $7 trillion gap

09:20 Geopolitical contrasts: US, EU, and China in the sustainability race

12:30 Beyond carbon: Measuring waste, water, and biodiversity impact

15:00 Tackling Scope 3: From spend-based data to real supplier metrics

18:15 Ensuring data integrity: Verification, auditability, and trust

22:00 AI’s footprint: The hidden environmental cost of artificial intelligence

27:30 Designing sustainable AI: Small models, smart principles, and market influence

32:00 AI for good: Empowering farmers, NGOs, and regenerative practices

34:20 The rise of the “sustainability technologist” and evolving team structures

36:40 From dashboards to decisions: Embedding sustainability in business systems

40:10 Case study: Manufacturing, CRM integration, and incentivizing low-impact choices

44:30 Regenerative business: Tech as a tool—if used with intent

47:50 The reboot button: Rethinking the concept of “we”

51:30 Closing thoughts and a call for integrity-driven transformation

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In this episode, Julien speaks with Alexandra Palt, recently appointed President of WWF France. Alexandra shares her unique journey from human rights lawyer to Chief Sustainability Officer at L'Oreal, where she drove ambitious transformation, to leading France's largest environmental NGO. The conversation explores the challenges of driving sustainability from within large corporations, the structural hurdles faced when profit and sustainability collide, insights from her experience navigating the "sustainability hype" and backlash, and her research on ethical leadership and the virtues necessary for leaders today. Alexandra also discusses the role of NGOs like WWF, the importance of local action and cooperation, and identifies the awareness of sustainable value chains as an underrated solution for businesses. This episode offers a profound look at navigating complex environmental and social challenges and redefining impact.

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