Welcome back to Our Agile Tales, where we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes to go over case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. His new book distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.

In this episode, we discuss the ingrained corporate budgeting practices, their inefficacies, and how to shift towards more adaptive, event-driven planning. The conversation also delves into the performance management debate and examines Handelsbanken's exceptional model, a bank that has successfully operated without traditional budgets, targets, or individual bonuses since the 1970s. Bjarte emphasizes the importance of separating accounting from forward-looking planning and highlights the impact of empowering employees and fostering transparency in achieving organizational success.

Key topics and approximate timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales
• 01:08 Challenges with Traditional Budgeting
• 02:04 Separating Accounting from Forward Planning
• 03:49 The Importance of Dynamic Management
• 05:47 Rethinking Performance Management
• 09:42 Case Study: Handelsbanken
• 13:50 The Origins of Handelsbanken's Approach
• 17:59 The Evolution of Beyond Budgeting
• 20:46 Handelsbanken's Unique Management Model
• 29:30 Episode Conclusion

About Bjarte Bogsnes

Bjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.

Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human.

You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/

Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com.

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Welcome to a new season of Our Agile Tales.

We have brought back Bjarte Bogsnes, Chairman of Beyond Budgeting Round Table, and is a popular international business speaker and Beyond Budgeting coach. He is an award-winning author and long-time champion of more adaptive human organizations. In this series of episodes, Bjarte reflects on 25 years of management innovation and the evolution of Beyond Budgeting far beyond its financial origins.

Our episode starts with a refresher on what Beyond Budgeting is, and why it is so often misunderstood as "just a finance thing." From there, we explore how deeply traditional management assumptions shape behavior, trust, and decision-making inside organizations. Bjarte uses metaphors, real-world examples, and decades of experience to explain why many well-intended Agile and Lean transformations stall or fail if they don't address and rethink the management processes. We dive into Theory X and Theory Y, the hidden damage caused by fixed targets and calendar-driven planning, and how separating targets, forecasts, and resource allocation can fundamentally change behavior. Throughout the episode, Bjarte makes the case that true business agility requires coherence and alignment between leadership principles and management systems. Without this alignment, successful long-term transformations will not be achieved.

Key topics and approximate timestamps

• 00:00 – Introduction to Our Agile Tales
• 01:52 – Why Beyond Budgeting is not about finance—and why the name still matters
• 04:30 – Challenging traditional management assumptions: trust and predictability
• 07:10 – Leadership principles vs. management processes: where companies break coherence
• 10:00 – Why Agile and Lean need Beyond Budgeting to scale at the enterprise level
• 13:21 – Theory X and Theory Y: how beliefs about people shape management models
• 16:40 – The problem with combining targets, forecasts, and resource allocation
• 18:30 – Gaming, sandbagging, and unintended consequences of budgeting systems
• 20:24 – What's wrong with traditional targets—and how relative targets change behavior
• 23:10 – Moving from calendar-driven planning to business- and event-driven rhythms
• 26:00 – Continuous decision-making as a Beyond Budgeting version of continuous delivery
• 28:29 – Closing reflections and broader implications for adaptive organizations

About Bjarte Bogsnes

Bjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.

Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human.

You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/

Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com.

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Welcome to another episode of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action!

In this episode, we continue our conversation with Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of Agile Lawyer and COP Solutions, and co-founder of LinkingHelp. Building on his experience supporting Ukrainian refugees, Ondřej shares how Agile practices like Scrum and Kanban made it possible to coordinate large-scale, cross-border legal aid while respecting privacy and professional responsibility.

We explore how visibility and transparency enabled fast action without exposing sensitive data, why government funding often moves too slowly for crisis response, and how donation-driven initiatives struggle once a crisis becomes the “new normal.” Ondřej argues that sustainable humanitarian work must blend social impact with viable business models.

The conversation also dives into AI in legal services—not as a silver bullet, but as an accelerator that only works once processes, data, and transparency are in place. We discuss why AI should assist lawyers rather than replace them, the data-protection concerns slowing adoption, and what the future holds for agile, AI-assisted law firms.

Episode Outline

• 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales
• 00:53 Agility in Humanitarian Efforts
• 02:12 Transparency and Visibility in Legal Aid
• 03:55 Challenges with Government Bureaucracy
• 05:39 LinkingHelp's Broader Impact
• 07:53 AI's Role in Legal Services
• 11:11 Future of AI and Agile in Law
• 22:07 Key Takeaways and Advice
• 23:43 Conclusion

About Ondrej Dvorak

Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.

You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Welcome to another episode of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action!

In this continuation of our conversation with Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of AgiLawyer and COPS Solutions, we go deeper into how you actually run and scale an agile, cross-border legal-aid initiative in the middle of a war. If the first episode was about launching Linking Help, this one is about surviving the scale-up.

Ondřej walks us through the messy, very human side of scaling legal aid for Ukrainian refugees: from dealing with thousands of requests in a language he didn’t speak, to building a “clearing desk” and help desk function led by Ukrainian lawyers, to teaching volunteer lawyers across multiple countries how to work in a pull-based, Kanban system when they’re used to command-and-control and assigned work.

We explore how culture and ways of working showed up in very concrete ways - why France “just got it” from day one, while countries like Romania needed more support and education before becoming top performers. Ondřej talks about how simplifying the Kanban system (fewer columns, fewer concepts, one clear task: connect the person to a lawyer) was crucial to onboarding busy legal professionals quickly in a crisis.

We also dig into scaling patterns: how they expanded country by country, used “early adopter” lawyers to grow local networks, and centralized the help desk while keeping case work decentralized. From there, the conversation shifts to constraints: the difficulty of fundraising for legal aid (which is hard to “picture”), differences in how pro bono is treated across jurisdictions, and the legal and ethical challenges of using AI to support legal work, especially questions of accountability and liability when AI-generated guidance might be wrong.

If you’re interested in how Agile, Kanban, and crisis-driven decision-making play out in the real world, across borders, cultures, and regulatory systems, then this episode is a rich case study in making agility practical, humane, and scalable beyond software.

Episode Outline

• 00:00 Introduction & recap of Part 1
• 01:05 The language barrier: Ukrainian requests and the need for a “clearing desk”
• 07:58 Designing the help desk workflow
• 10:45 Teaching lawyers a new way of working: pull vs. command-and-control
• 13:12 Culture in action: why France “just worked” and Romania needed more coaching
• 16:00 Simplifying Kanban for legal work
• 18:48 Scaling country by country: early adopters, bar associations, and building local communities
• 22:10 Centralized help desk, decentralized service: funding, hiring Ukrainian students, and managing demand
• 24:55 Business model and funding constraints: the challenge of raising money for legal aid
• 26:10 Legal and AI constraints: pro bono differences, AI-assisted legal opinions, and accountability
• 28:30 Reflections on crisis as a catalyst and the future of global, AI-supported legal aid
• 29:07 Conclusion

About Ondrej Dvorak

Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.

You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Welcome to a new series of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action!

In this series of episodes, we are joined by Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of AgiLawyer and COPS Solutions, and someone proving that agility isn’t limited to software teams or startups. With over 15 years at the crossroads of IT, law and finance, Ondřej has been bringing Agile principles into fields few consider “Agile-friendly.”

In this first episode, Ondřej explains how Agile methodologies like Scrum and Kanban can transform even the most traditional industries, including legal services. He details his initiatives, such as the non-profit Linking Help, which utilized Agile frameworks to aid Ukrainian refugees. Ondřej shares how he sparked Agile adoption in the legal sector by addressing common barriers and educating legal professionals on these methods. Additionally, he discusses the practical challenges and solutions implemented in real-world environments, emphasizing the adaptability and resilience that Agile offers, even in chaotic situations such as war. The discussion highlights the importance of Agile education for students and how it can prepare them for dynamic work environments.

• 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales
• 00:17 Meet Ondřej Dvořák
• 03:14 Applying Agile to the Legal Industry
• 07:18 Challenges and Objections in Legal Agile Transformation
• 14:09 Agile Education for Law Students
• 16:42 Linking Help: Agile in Humanitarian Aid
• 20:44 Building and Scaling Linking Help
• 29:07 Conclusion

About Ondrej Dvorak

Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.

You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

In this last episode of our conversation with Nevine White, she discusses her journey in transforming traditional yearly budgeting to adaptive agile financial planning frameworks in major telecom firms. Nevine shares insights into overcoming leadership resistance, empowering teams to challenge the status quo, and the importance of continuous planning and operational agility. She explains how these changes fostered organizational nimbleness, better decision-making, and a culture of innovation. The conversation explores the role of finance in driving change, overcoming bureaucracy, and enhancing organizational agility, offering practical advice on managing fear, facilitating change, and improving communication and engagement within teams.

• 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales
• 00:44 Transforming Financial Planning
• 02:12 Challenges of Leadership Changes
• 02:50 Empowering Organizational Change
• 05:18 Finance Team's Reaction to Change
• 08:28 Improving Communication and Processes
• 10:04 Addressing Risk and Fear in Finance
• 12:06 Overcoming Traditional Finance Barriers
• 16:15 Leading Change from Within
• 20:08 Advice for Finance and Non-Finance Teams
• 26:09 Conclusion and Upcoming Episode Teaser

Nevine's insights highlight that there’s no one-size-fits-all playbook for financial agility. Instead, transformation requires experimentation, iteration, and courage to question the sacred cows of yearly budgets. Her experiences demonstrate how finance—often seen as the last function to change—can become a catalyst for business agility, resilience, and innovation. She is a Senior VP of Finance at Greater Technology Together and a member of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table. Nevine has spent nearly two decades guiding organizations through the shift from rigid annual budgets to adaptive, rolling financial frameworks that enable true business agility.

About Nevine White:
Beginning her 35-year career in telecom engineering, Nevine went on to lead the FP&A function at TW Telecom for 2 decades. There, she championed powerful changes in financial planning that enabled an agile and effective management structure by eliminating traditional budgets. After the company's sale, Nevine continued this work with Live Future Ready, leveraging her experience to support organizations in their financial transformation efforts across various industries. In 2019, Nevine joined Hargray Communications Group as the VP of Accounting, before taking on building the Finance and Administrative functions for a broadband start-up. She is currently the Senior Vice President of Finance at Greater Technology Together, a leading network and security-as-a-service firm.

Recognized for her experience in finance, agility, and team building, she has been featured at conferences and on podcasts. She enjoys sharing her learnings and experiences with anyone seeking to change and enable their teams meaningfully.

You can follow Nevine on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nevinewhite/

Podcast music courtesy of www.purple-planet.com

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

We are continuing our conversation with Nevine White, Senior VP of Finance at Greater Technology Together and a member of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table. Nevine has spent nearly two decades guiding organizations through the shift from rigid annual budgets to adaptive, rolling financial frameworks that enable true business agility.

In this episode, Nevine discusses the challenges and success of empowering teams, the concept of embedded finance, and how transforming financial processes has fostered business agility, creativity, and resilience. Nevine details the importance of support structures, clear empowerment guidelines, and the impact of shifting from conventional budget models. Her transformative initiatives led to significant improvements in operational efficiency and organizational morale.

• 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales
• 02:12 Empowerment in the Workplace
• 03:44 Anecdote: The Importance of Clear Empowerment
• 06:44 Introducing Embedded Finance
• 10:17 Measuring Success and Overcoming Challenges
• 12:59 Transforming Finance Teams
• 18:10 The Impact of Abandoning Traditional Budgets
• 22:40 Continuous Planning and Forecasting
• 28:58 Conclusion

Nevine's insights highlight that there’s no one-size-fits-all playbook for financial agility. Instead, transformation requires experimentation, iteration, and courage to question the sacred cows of yearly budgets. Her experiences demonstrate how finance - often seen as the last function to change - can become a catalyst for business agility, resilience, and innovation.

About Nevine White:
Beginning her 35-year career in telecom engineering, Nevine moved on to leading the FP&A function for TW Telecom for two decades. There she championed powerful changes in financial planning that enabled an agile and effective management structure by eliminating traditional budgets. After the sale of the company, Nevine continued this work with Live Future Ready, leveraging her experience to support organizations in their financial transformation efforts across various industries. In 2019, Nevine joined Hargray Communications Group as the VP Accounting, before taking on building the Finance and Administrative functions for a broadband start-up. She is currently the Senior Vice President of Finance at Greater Technology Together, a leading network and security as a service firm.

Recognized for her experience in finance agility and building effective teams, she has been featured at conferences and on podcasts, and enjoys sharing her learnings and experiences with all who are seeking to meaningfully change and enable their teams.

You can follow Nevine on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nevinewhite/

Podcast music courtesy of www.purple-planet.com

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

We are continuing our conversation with Nevine White, Senior VP of Finance at Greater Technology Together and a member of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table. Nevine has spent nearly two decades guiding organizations through the shift from rigid annual budgets to adaptive, rolling financial frameworks that enable true business agility.

In this episode, Nevine discusses the complexities of rewarding performance, advocating for rewards disconnecting from financial targets to prevent bad behavior. She emphasizes the power of recognition and simple rewards over monetary incentives. She also highlights her strategies for career growth and new process implementation, stressing the importance of defining success criteria upfront and evaluating outcomes transparently. Listen in to learn how rethinking budget processes can foster creativity, collaboration, and enduring business agility.

• 00:00 Introduction
• 00:44 Transforming Financial Planning
• 02:14 Rewards and Recognition Schemes
• 06:21 Creative Incentives and Employee Motivation
• 11:57 HR Policies and Career Growth
• 17:15 Innovative Processes and Experimentation
• 20:18 Measuring Success and Continuous Improvement
• 26:27 Product Reviews and Organizational Conversations
• 28:17 Conclusion

Nevine's insights highlight that there’s no one-size-fits-all playbook for financial agility. Instead, transformation requires experimentation, iteration, and courage to question the sacred cows of yearly budgets. Her experiences demonstrate how finance - often seen as the last function to change - can become a catalyst for business agility, resilience, and innovation.

About Nevine White:
Beginning her 35-year career in telecom engineering, Nevine moved on to leading the FP&A function for TW Telecom for two decades. There she championed powerful changes in financial planning that enabled an agile and effective management structure by eliminating traditional budgets. After the sale of the company, Nevine continued this work with Live Future Ready, leveraging her experience to support organizations in their financial transformation efforts across various industries. In 2019, Nevine joined Hargray Communications Group as the VP Accounting, before taking on building the Finance and Administrative functions for a broadband start-up. She is currently the Senior Vice President of Finance at Greater Technology Together, a leading network and security as a service firm.

Recognized for her experience in finance agility and building effective teams, she has been featured at conferences and on podcasts, and enjoys sharing her learnings and experiences with all who are seeking to meaningfully change and enable their teams.

You can follow Nevine on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nevinewhite/

Podcast music courtesy of www.purple-planet.com

Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about