Travis Michael Fleming and Jeff Leonard sit down for an honest, thoughtful conversation about what it’s like to search for God when He feels distant—maybe even hard to find. Drawing from Leonard’s book Seekers in the Hands of an Elusive God, they wrestle with what faith looks like in seasons of uncertainty, doubt, and spiritual dryness.

They don’t shy away from the tension. Instead, they look back at Scripture and point out something we often forget: many of the people we admire most in the Bible struggled with the same feelings. They questioned, they doubted, and at times, they felt like God was far away. That doesn’t disqualify faith—it’s actually part of it.

Throughout the conversation, there’s an invitation to be honest about those experiences instead of hiding them. Naming the struggle, rather than pretending it isn’t there, can open the door to a deeper, more resilient faith. Even when God feels silent, the act of seeking Him still matters—and can shape us in ways we don’t expect.

In the end, the message is simple but not shallow: you’re not alone in this, and even in the quiet, there’s still reason for hope.

Takeaways:

• Feeling like God is distant isn’t unusual—it’s something many believers experience at different points.
• The Bible gives us language for these moments, especially through laments that make space for honesty, confusion, and pain.
• God’s “elusiveness” can actually draw us in deeper, pushing us to pursue Him more intentionally.
• Even in dark or quiet seasons, seeking God is not wasted—it can become one of the most transformative parts of your faith journey.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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The conversation traces what feels like a real shift—Christian influence fading in the West while, at the same time, the church is growing in powerful ways across the Global South. Dr. Stanley points out that the Western church is at a crossroads. We’re dealing with the effects of extreme individualism, and it’s chipped away at the shared, communal life that’s meant to define us as Christians.

As we look back at the history of mission, it becomes clear that the story we’ve often told is a bit too simple. We haven’t always wrestled honestly with how missionary work and imperial ambition were sometimes tangled together. And because of that, we’ve ended up with a skewed picture of Christianity’s role in shaping cultures.

Dr. Stanley pushes us to revisit that story with more honesty and depth—to acknowledge both the good and the harm. Not to tear it down, but to understand it rightly. And out of that, he calls church leaders to develop a kind of discernment—a critical awareness of the world we’re in now—so we can engage our culture in a way that actually connects. Because if our witness is going to matter in a post-Christian world, it has to be both thoughtful and real.

Takeaways:

• The erosion of Christian community is significantly influenced by extreme individualism in contemporary society.
• Christian congregations that embody the values of the kingdom of God serve as the most effective instruments for mission.
• Learning from the global story of Christianity is vital for churches in the Western world, especially in a post-Christian context.
• The relationship between Christian expansion and political power is complex and often mischaracterized in contemporary discussions.
• The decline of Christian influence in the West can be attributed to various factors, including the impact of two world wars and the rise of individualism.
• The future of the church is likely to be multi-ethnic and multicultural, reflecting the diversity of its global mission.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

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This conversation with Dr. Chantal Delsol, centered on her book Prosperity and Torment in France, gets at something really important—why people can have so much materially and still feel deeply unsatisfied. Drawing from her Catholic intellectual tradition, she brings a thoughtful and deeply formed perspective to the question of meaning in modern life.

One of the big ideas she highlights is that happiness isn’t ultimately tied to wealth or status—it’s tied to meaning. If people don’t believe their lives have real purpose, no amount of prosperity is going to fix that.

She points to this interesting tension in French society. On paper, it’s one of the most economically equal societies in the world, and yet there’s this underlying frustration and discontent. Part of that, she suggests, comes from chasing an ideal—this vision of perfect equality—that’s never actually attainable. And when reality doesn’t live up to that vision, it leaves people feeling disillusioned. It’s especially worth paying attention to in a moment when many younger people are increasingly drawn to similar ideas, because France, in some ways, offers a glimpse of where that path can lead.

What’s really compelling is how she connects all of this to the deeper spiritual story of France. There’s a rich history there—a sense of calling and purpose—that’s been slowly eroded by secularism and a growing focus on individualism. And when that foundation fades, people are left trying to build meaning on things that can’t really support it.

For church leaders, this raises some important questions. How do you lead in a culture where people are materially comfortable but spiritually restless? How do you help people rediscover a sense of purpose that goes beyond themselves?

Delsol’s encouragement is clear: the church has a real opportunity here. By cultivating genuine community and pointing people toward something transcendent, leaders can help address that deeper hunger people are feeling. This episode is a helpful guide for navigating ministry in a culture that’s shifting fast—and often searching for meaning in all the wrong places.

• Real happiness goes deeper than money, success, or education—it’s ultimately about having a sense of meaning and purpose in life.
• France shows an interesting tension: even with a strong commitment to equality, there’s still a widespread sense of frustration and pessimism.
• Looking at France’s history, you start to see some of the limits of socialism when it comes to actually producing lasting fulfillment.
• For church leaders, there’s a constant balancing act—caring well for people while also honoring personal responsibility and freedom.
• The rise of secularism in France isn’t just a local issue—it reflects a broader challenge across the West, especially when it comes to identity and purpose.
• In many cases, initiative within churches gets stifled when people rely too heavily on centralized systems instead of taking ownership at the local level.

Keep up with updates from Apollos Watered: The Center for Discipleship & Cultural Apologetics.

Get Travis's book Blueprint: Kingdom Living in the Modern World.

Join Travis's Substack, Deep Roots Society.

Help support the ministry of Apollos Watered and transform your world today!