Couverture de Messy with Daniel Atlin

Messy with Daniel Atlin

Messy with Daniel Atlin

De : Solid Gold Podcasts #BeHeard
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 Make Sense of the Mess of Leadership. Today’s leaders are facing unprecedented challenges. It’s a messy, complex world that requires a different approach and mindset to get things done. This is where you'll find conversations on how leaders in complex organizations navigate and make sense of the mess they find themselves in.Solid Gold Podcasts and Audiobooks Economie Management Management et direction Sciences sociales
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    Épisodes
    • Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin

      Between the Dance Floor and the Balcony | Iain Martin
      Feb 10 2026
      Leading across Australia, the UK, and New Zealand.

      What does it mean to lead a university when trust in public institutions is eroding and the rules keep changing?

      In this episode of Messy, I speak with Iain Martin, President and Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, about navigating leadership in the thick of complexity. From global rankings and political scrutiny to AI, massification, and polarisation, the conversation surfaces the often unseen pressures shaping modern universities.

      The “dance floor and balcony” metaphor comes from the adaptive leadership work of Ron Heifetz and Marty Linsky. It captures the leadership challenge of staying grounded in day-to-day realities while also stepping back to see system-level patterns.

      Iain reflects on his leadership journey across three Commonwealth systems. He shares how curiosity, narrative, and sensemaking (rather than rigid planning) have guided his approach. Central to the discussion is the idea of social license: who grants it, how easily it can be lost, and why rebuilding it requires leaders to think beyond their own institutions.

      Without offering simple solutions, this episode sits with the mess, exploring how leaders balance the dance floor and the balcony, strategy and stewardship, optimism and realism. It underscores why universities still matter as places for difficult conversations in a fractured world.

      Key highlights
      • Why universities cannot “go it alone” on social license
      • The leadership cost of ignoring community expectations
      • Universities as complex adaptive systems that require “productive chaos”
      • Transparency as a practical trust-building strategy
      • The future of assessment and learning in an AI-enabled world
      • Why narrative and storytelling are essential leadership tools

      I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please write a review and share it with a friend.

      Living and leading in the mess is easier with others. Iain Martin's Bio and contact info at Deakin · Iain's discussion & paper on the social license challenge of universities · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
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      57 min
    • Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip

      Structured Chaos in a Messy System | John Yip
      Jan 28 2026
      A little playbook, a little Picasso.

      Healthcare is often treated as a hospital story, until you need care at home.

      In this episode of Messy, I am joined by John Yip, President & CEO of SE Health, to talk about leading at the intersection of health systems, digital transformation, workforce innovation, and social purpose.

      John shares how his early work in the digital economy still echoes today, why home and community care is both essential and misunderstood, and what it takes to build alignment across a complex, distributed organisation operating in Canada’s fragmented provincial landscape. The conversation goes deep on COVID-era leadership: uncertainty, moral pressure, scarcity, and the real-world improvisation required when there is no playbook.

      We also explore what “digital transformation” should mean now and how to ensure technology serves care (not the other way around), why safe experimentation matters, and the potential of healthcare data to improve aging and wellbeing. John offers a powerful metaphor from his personal endurance project: “running every street” as a practice of curiosity, resilience, and rewiring your perspective.

      Key themes:
      • Sensemaking across long arcs of change
      • Healthcare as a complex, fragmented ecosystem
      • Leadership in distributed, mission-driven systems
      • Frontline intimacy and relational care
      • Crisis leadership requires improvisation
      • Resilience through exploration and “structured chaos”

      If leadership sometimes feels like chopping wood, this episode is a reminder: the grind is part of the work and purpose is what helps you stay even-keeled through the mess.

      If you like this episode, write a review and share. Leading through the mess is easier with friends and colleagues. SE Health Website · Running magazine Canada article about John running every street · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
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      56 min
    • Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler

      Universities at the Boundary | Meric Gertler
      Jan 15 2026
      Sensemaking and Placemaking.

      In June 2025, Meric Gertler completed a 12-year term as President of the University of Toronto.

      I had the privilege and good fortune to first meet and work with Meric Gertler in 2007 when he was then the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Science at the University of Toronto. What stood out most was his curious, thoughtful, and deeply empathetic approach to leadership.

      Now, 18 years later, I thoroughly enjoyed our "Messy" conversation. A great deal of it explores how sensemaking is a crucial but often unrecognised function of university presidents, involving engaging with communities in all its definitions, interpreting signals, global trends and events to help their institutions understand their role in addressing societal challenges.

      We cover lots more ground in our conversation:
      • Why sensemaking is a non-delegable responsibility of senior leaders
      • How universities build (or lose) legitimacy and public trust
      • What higher education truly owes society
      • Universities as engines of access, inclusion, and opportunity
      • The challenge of fostering real debate & “disagree welling”
      • Leading through the pandemic
      • Navigating geopolitical disruption and social media fragmentation
      • How U of T became a global leader in sustainability
      • Lessons about mobilising change in complex systems
      • Practical leadership lessons on delegation, listening, and sustaining yourself in demanding roles

      This episode is a powerful reflection on leadership at the boundary: between institutions and society, certainty and ambiguity, responsibility and possibility.

      If you’re navigating complexity, questioning institutional purpose, or trying to lead with integrity in uncertain times, this conversation will stay with you.

      If you like it, please subscribe and share it with a colleague or friend! University of Toronto · Website · Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
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      59 min
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