On this episode, Nathan Goodman interviews political theorist Jacob Levy about the rule of law and its tensions with modern immigration enforcement. Drawing on his 2018 article, “The rule of law and the risks of lawlessness,” Levy explains that the rule of law requires laws to be general, predictable, and applied equally. Referencing thinkers like Montesquieu, Fuller, Hayek, Oakeshott, and Shklar, Levy argues that immigration control often violates these principles, especially when it involves militarized policing, extrajudicial punishment, and fear-based governance, which ultimately threatens both civil liberties and democratic institutions.

Dr. Jacob T. Levy is Tomlinson Professor of Political Theory and associated faculty in the Department of Philosophy at McGill University. He is the coordinator of McGill’s Research Group on Constitutional Studies and was the founding director of McGill’s Yan P. Lin Centre for the Study of Freedom and Global Orders in the Ancient and Modern Worlds. He is a Senior Fellow at the Niskanen Center. He is the author of The Multiculturalism of Fear (Oxford University Press, 2000) and Rationalism, Pluralism, and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2014).

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On this episode, Peter Boettke chats with Mark Pennington on Mark's latest book, Foucault and Liberal Political Economy: Power, Knowledge, and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2025). Pennington argues that Foucault's ideas on self-creation, disciplinary power, and biopolitics align with key liberal concerns about social control and individual agency. He critiques how both liberals and Foucauldian critics have misunderstood or ignored these connections, and drawing on thinkers like Hayek, Buchanan, and Ostrom, he calls for a liberalism that emphasizes pluralism, resists technocratic overreach, and engages more deeply with the insights of the humanities.

Dr. Mark Pennington is Professor of Political Economy and Public Policy in the Department of Political Economy at King’s College London. He holds a PhD from the London School of Economics and Political Science. Pennington is currently director of the Centre for the Study of Governance and Society.

If you like the show, please subscribe, leave a 5-star review, and tell others about the show! We're available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Virtual Sentiments, a podcast series from the Hayek Program, is streaming. Subscribe today and listen to season three, releasing now!

Follow the Hayek Program on Twitter: @HayekProgram

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Follow the Mercatus Center on Twitter: @mercatus

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On this episode, Nathan Goodman speaks with Abby Hall on the "boomerang effect," where U.S. military tools and tactics used abroad—like drones—are repurposed for domestic border enforcement. Hall discusses how restrictive immigration policies, such as the Secure Fence Act and Operation Streamline, often lead to unintended consequences like increased migrant deaths and overwhelmed asylum systems. She advocates for more open immigration pathways to improve both humanitarian outcomes and resource allocation. The conversation also highlights how past U.S. interventions in Latin America have contributed to current migration patterns and emphasizes the importance of humility and flexibility in policy research.

Dr. Abigail R. Hall is an Associate Professor of Economics at the University of Tampa and a Senior Affiliated Scholar at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. She has published numerous books, including her most recent satirical book, How to Run Wars: A Confidential Playbook for the National Security Elite co-authored with Christopher J. Coyne (2024). She holds a PhD in Economics from George Mason University and is an alum of the Mercatus PhD Fellowship.

Show Notes:

• Hall's article, "Border Fencing, Migrant Flows, and Crossing Deaths"
• Hall's article, "The Unintended Consequences of U.S. Asylum Policy"

If you like the show, please subscribe, leave a 5-star review, and tell others about the show! We're available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you get your podcasts.

Virtual Sentiments, a podcast series from the Hayek Program, is streaming. Subscribe today and listen to season three, releasing now!

Follow the Hayek Program on Twitter: @HayekProgram

Learn more about Academic & Student Programs

Follow the Mercatus Center on Twitter: @mercatus

CC Music: Twisterium