About Our Guest

The Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis is an author, activist, preacher, and public theologian working toward an anti-racist, just, fully welcoming society in which everyone has enough. A 2025 Franklin D. Roosevelt Institute Freedom of Worship Laureate and a Democracy Fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute, Jacqui has served as Senior Minister of Middle Church in New York City since 2005. She is a frequent television commentator and the author of Fierce Love, The Just Love Story Bible, and 10 Essential Strategies for Becoming a Multiracial Congregation, among other books. Her podcast, Love, Period, is available wherever podcasts are found.

In This Episode

To kick off Season 4, Siobhan and Ben sit down with Jacqui, whose writing helped inspire our "Scandalous" miniseason. She shares her testimony, from a childhood steeped in Black church legacy to a formative reckoning at Princeton Seminary to pastoring "the church of her dreams."

Then the conversation turns to a love that is anything but passive: ferocious, rule-breaking, and strong enough to build a shelter for others. It might change how you hear the word "love."

Segments:

• Query of the Day: What's your favorite way to say thank you?
• Moment in Queer Christian History: The 40th anniversary of Middle Church's Jerriese Johnson Gospel Choir

Resources Mentioned

• Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World by Jacqui Lewis
• Freedom Rising Conference: freedomrisingconference.com
• Choir 40th Anniversary Concert: November 8 at 3:00 PM at Middle Church

Connect with Jacqui & Middle Church

• Instagram: @middlechurch and @revjacquilewis
• YouTube: @MiddleNYC
• TikTok: @middle.church
• Facebook: Middle Collegiate Church
• Website: www.middlechurch.org

More from Coming Out Christian

• Episode page: loveboldly.org/comingoutchristian
• Instagram: @comingoutchristian_podcast
• Need a transcript of this episode? Download it here: https://www.loveboldly.org/post/s4e1-rev-dr-jacqui-lewis

Enjoying the podcast? Support the work of LOVEboldly at loveboldly.org/donate.

Scandalous, Episode 4: Rev. Dr. Pauli Murray

Coming Out Christian's mini-season "Scandalous" continues as Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and the Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp welcome back Rev. Melinda Garza Moran to discuss a barrier-breaking figure whose story deserves far wider recognition: the Reverend Dr. Pauli Murray.

A lawyer, activist, poet, and priest, Murray graduated first in her class from Howard Law School, co-founded the National Organization for Women, and helped shape the legal arguments behind landmark civil rights and gender equality cases, work that influenced both Thurgood Marshall and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. At age 63, after decades of pioneering work in law and academia, Murray entered seminary and went on to become the first African American woman ordained as an Episcopal priest.

Melinda shares what drew her to Murray's story after watching a documentary on her life, and the group digs into what it meant for Murray to keep "causing good trouble" well into her seventies, the quiet strength of the aunt who raised her without judgment, and how Murray's justice work continued into the life of the church itself. The conversation also touches on the ongoing scholarly debate about which pronouns best honor Murray's gender-expansive identity (in these notes, we've followed the episode's lead in using she/her).

Learn more about Rev. Melinda Garza Moran and her ministry at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Kenwood, Ohio, at www.goodshepherd.com. You can also follow Rev. Melinda on social media @heysaints26 (Instagram, Threads, and Facebook).

Follow along at @comingoutchristian_podcast and @loveboldly, and find more at www.loveboldly.org.

Coming Out Christian's mini-season "Scandalous" continues as Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and the Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp welcome back Bishop Tim Wolfe, who is transitioning from his role as Midwest Regional Bishop into a new role as a Senior Bishop, to talk about a legendary figure from his own faith formation: Reverend Clarence H. Cobbs.

Known simply as "Preacher," Cobbs founded Chicago's First Church of Deliverance in 1929 at just 21 years old, building it into a spiritual and cultural landmark of Bronzeville with a pioneering radio broadcast, a 200-voice choir, and a congregation that grew to more than 10,000 members. Though rumors about his sexual orientation swirled for decades, even prompting a 1939 newspaper investigation, Cobbs never confirmed or denied the speculation, choosing instead to be known simply as a follower of Jesus.

Bishop Wolfe, who knew Rev. Cobbs personally as a young man finding his spiritual home at First Church, shares vivid, moving reflections on Preacher's radical hospitality, his unbothered response to gossip and scandal, and his gift for reading the Gospels "at face value." The conversation explores what it means to build a church rooted in genuine sanctification rather than respectability politics, and why refusing to let others' opinions dictate your calling is its own kind of holy defiance.

Learn more about First Church of Deliverance at fcdchicago.org, and about the Fellowship of Affirming Ministries at wearetfam.org. Follow Bishop Wolfe on Instagram @tgwolfe91159.

Follow along at @comingoutchristian_podcast and @loveboldly, and find more at www.loveboldly.org.

Scandalous, Episode 2: Bayard Rustin

Coming Out Christian's mini-season "Scandalous" continues as Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and the Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp welcome back the Rev. Dr. Mashaun D. Simon to discuss a holy tantrum thrower whose legacy has too often been pushed into the shadows: Bayard Rustin.

Born in 1912 to teenage parents and raised by his grandparents, Rustin was shaped by his grandmother Julia's Quaker faith, a faith he lived out for the rest of his life, from his training as a conscientious objector to his practice of nonviolence even while imprisoned. That same faith carried him into the heart of the Civil Rights Movement, where, largely uncredited, he helped organize the Montgomery Bus Boycott, co-founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and orchestrated the 1963 March on Washington.

Mashaun and the hosts explore how Rustin's identity as an openly gay Black man shaped both his activism and his place in history, the radical grace of his grandmother's love, and what it means to be a faith leader outside the traditional pulpit. The episode includes a candid historical assessment of Rustin, though it ultimately lands on the power of his activism and the depth of his faith.

Learn more about Rev. Dr. Mashaun D. Simon at mashaundsimon.com, and find his book, Faith Deconstruction for Dummies, at Bookshop.org. To hear Bayard Rustin tell his own story in his own words, visit the Bayard Rustin Center for Social Justice's Queer History Archive at rustincenter.org/brcsjqueerhistory.

Follow along at @comingoutchristian_podcast and @loveboldly, and find more at www.loveboldly.org.

"Coming Out Christian" kicks off a new mini-season, "Scandalous," inspired by the Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis's essay "Scandalous Confrontation: When a Temple Tantrum Is Transformative." In each episode, hosts Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and the Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp welcome back a favorite guest to spotlight a "holy tantrum thrower" whose scandalous faithfulness sparked real transformation.

This week, the Rev. Br. Ian Boden, OLF, returns to introduce Saints Francis and Clare of Assisi, two thirteenth-century "young upstarts" whose radical rejection of wealth and status the church could hardly believe. Ben sets the historical stage before Ian dives into the good trouble Francis and Clare stirred up: Francis renouncing his father's fortune, and Clare defying the pope himself to write her own rule of life as the first woman in church history to do so. Along the way, the conversation explores medieval attitudes toward wealth and poverty, gender norms within religious orders, and how Francis' radical embrace of creation still challenges the church today.

For more on Ian's community, check out the Order of Lutheran Franciscans (lutheranfranciscans.org) or follow him on Instagram @ian.boden1.

Ian also recommends Francis: A New Biography by Fr. Augustine Thompson and Light of Assisi by Sr. Margaret Carney, along with the Franciscan Intellectual Tradition website (franciscantradition.org) for further reading.

Follow along at @comingoutchristian_podcast and @loveboldly, and find more at www.loveboldly.org.

Coming Out Christian | Season 3, Episode 15 Guest: Joseph "Zé" Soza

What happens when the faith you were raised in no longer fits and you find yourself building something new from the pieces?

Joseph "Zé" Soza (he/him/el) grew up in a deeply Pentecostal household in Ohio, shaped by long Sundays filled with ecstatic worship, speaking in tongues, and teary altar calls. His father is a theologian, Bible scholar, and pastor; his mother a devoted pastor's wife and public servant. Faith wasn't just part of Zé's upbringing, it was the air he breathed. And yet, after years of being torturously closeted, Zé came out as a gay Queer man in his early 20s and began a journey of self-actualization that eventually led him away from Christianity and toward Buddhism, though he'd be the first to tell you it's more complicated than that.

In this episode, hosts Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp sit down with Zé to explore his journey from Pentecostal pastor's kid to Buddhist practitioner and yoga teacher and his deeply thoughtful approach to spirituality, not adopting a tradition wholesale, but using the tools and practices of multiple faiths to build a life of meaning and authenticity.

Honest, searching, and beautifully human.

• 📲 Follow Zé on Instagram: @zesoza8
• 🧘 Find Zé at Modo Yoga Columbus: modoyoga.com/columbus
• 🎙️ Follow the podcast on Instagram: @comingoutchristian_podcast
• 🌈 Follow LOVEboldly: @loveboldly

Note - Since this episode was recorded the date of "Over the Rainbow: A Symposium on LGBTQIA+ Death and Dying" has changed to August 22, 2026. For more information visit https://www.loveboldly.org/overtherainbow.

Coming Out Christian | Season 3, Episode 13 Guest: Rev. Charles Unique

What does it look like when ministry and justice aren't two separate callings — but one?

Rev. Charles Unique is a gender anarchist, organizer, and ordained clergy whose life work centers the dismantling of oppressive systems and the liberation of marginalized communities. With over a decade of community-rooted experience, Charles serves as Legal Empowerment Organizer at Tenants Transforming Greater St. Louis and is the founder of Flower Boi STL, a peer-led space for masculine people of color to dismantle toxic masculinity and build alternative modes of expression. They are also a co-founder and board member of THISTL, supporting trans housing access across St. Louis, and a Master of Divinity student at Eden Theological Seminary. Their organizing, writing, and movement work have been featured in STL Magazine, KSDK News, and NPR, among others.

In this episode, hosts Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp sit down with Charles to explore their experiences as a Black trans man of faith, their path toward ordination, and their tireless work at the intersection of housing justice, food sovereignty, gender freedom, and Black trans liberation. It's a conversation that refuses to separate the spiritual from the political — because for Charles, they never have been.

Fierce, tender, and utterly necessary.

What if you could tell your whole story in just six words?

Tyler Chernesky is a storyteller, writer, placemaker, and strategist with a resume that defies easy categorization: pastor, art gallery co-director, mixed-media collage artist, Six-Word Memoirs resource developer, and currently Executive Director of Community Happens Here, a neighborhood-focused nonprofit dedicated to connecting neighbors across difference in Cincinnati, Ohio. He's also an openly queer leader whose journey from evangelical Christianity to full affirmation has shaped everything about how he shows up in the world.

In this episode, hosts Siobhan Boyd-Nelson and the Rev. Dr. Ben Huelskamp sit down with Tyler to explore his path from evangelical church kid to fully affirming, openly queer pastor and community leader. They dig into his neighborhood work with Community Happens Here and the ways that connecting people across difference is itself a deeply theological act. And they have a little fun with Six-Word Memoirs, the deceptively simple practice of distilling a life, a moment, or a story into exactly six words.

Creative, grounded, and quietly revolutionary.

• 🌐 Visit Tyler's website: tylerchernesky.com
• 🏘️ Learn about Community Happens Here: communityhappenshere.org
• 🎙️ Follow the podcast: @comingoutchristian_podcast
• 🌈 Follow LOVEboldly: @loveboldly