In this rich conversation, Dr. Habib Boerger speaks with Dr. Andrew Dreitcer—professor of spirituality and spiritual formation, spiritual director, Presbyterian pastor, author, and longtime practitioner and teacher of contemplative spirituality.

Andrew shares his remarkable spiritual journey from a childhood shaped by Christianity and social justice, through a period of agnosticism and existential questioning, to a profound encounter with contemplative spirituality. His journey led him to the Taizé monastic community in France, where prayer became the heart of his spiritual life.

Together, Habib and Andrew explore what it means to experience God not as a limited or overly familiar image, but as the ground of being—a mysterious, expansive, and deeply intimate Divine presence permeating our lives and the world around us.

Andrew offers practical wisdom for bringing contemplative prayer into everyday life, especially when traditional spiritual routines don't fit the realities of work, family, parenting, and a busy schedule. He shares how walking the dog, swimming, rocking his children, exercising, and simply paying attention to the world can become forms of contemplative practice.

The conversation also explores the Jesus Prayer, Centering Prayer, Ignatian contemplation, compassion practice, chanting, remembrance, and Andrew's practice of “gazing”—looking at people, nature, architecture, and ordinary moments with wonder and openness to the mystery of the Divine.

Habib and Andrew discover beautiful resonances between Christian contemplative spirituality and Sufi practice, including the Sufi understanding of creation as a revelation of the Divine Names and the shared movement of prayer as a way of returning to Divine presence.

If you've ever wondered how to deepen your spiritual practice, bring contemplation into ordinary life, or discover God beyond the images and beliefs you've inherited, this conversation offers a welcoming place to begin.

In this episode, we explore:

• Andrew Dreitcer's journey from agnosticism to contemplative Christianity
• The Divine as the “ground of being”
• Moving from asking whether God exists to discerning Divine presence
• Contemplative prayer and spiritual formation
• The Jesus Prayer and Centering Prayer
• Ignatian contemplation and imaginative prayer
• Compassion practice
• Finding God in parenting, exercise, walking, and everyday activities
• The spiritual practice of gazing with wonder
• Christian and Sufi approaches to Divine presence
• Creation as a revelation of the Divine
• Prayer, remembrance, chanting, and transformation of the heart
• How contemplative spirituality can become part of everyday life

Support the show

To make an appointment with Dr. Habib, visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.

In this episode of Beyond Names, Dr. Habib Boerger welcomes Barbara McAfee, voice coach, author, speaker, performer, songwriter, and longtime teacher of authentic self-expression.

Barbara shares her remarkable spiritual journey—from Presbyterian Christianity and Lutheranism to Unitarian Universalism and an enduring love of the Sufi mystics Rumi and Hafiz. Along the way, she discovered that opening the voice could also mean opening the self: moving beyond fear, trauma, old stories, and the limitations we place on who we believe we are.

Together, Habib and Barbara explore the spiritual power of voice, sound, singing, and authentic expression. They talk about listening for the voice of God in our own voice, the "astonishing light" within each person, and the ways sound and chanting connect spiritual traditions across cultures.

Barbara also shares deeply moving stories about her father’s death, grief, and the unexpected spiritual awakening that came through being present at the end of his life. From there, the conversation opens into the sacred dimensions of sound, including the idea that creation itself is spoken, sung, or sounded into being.

The conversation then turns toward community singing, collective healing, leadership, resistance, and human connection. Barbara describes how singing can transform groups of strangers into a “living, breathing entity,” reminding us of our innate connection with one another.

And beneath it all is a powerful invitation: What is the story you carry about your own voice?

If you have ever felt afraid to speak, sing, create, lead, or fully express who you are, this conversation offers another possibility—that your voice may be more than a means of communication. It may be a doorway into healing, courage, community, and the astonishing light of your own being.

In this episode:

• Finding your authentic voice as a spiritual practice
• Rumi, Hafiz, and the connection between Sufism and sound
• Overcoming shame, stage fright, and fear of self-expression
• Grief, death, and unexpected spiritual awakening
• The sacred power of chanting, singing, and sound
• Voice, trauma, embodiment, and healing
• Community singing and collective connection
• Leadership without hierarchy
• Beauty as an innate human capacity
• Finding the courage to use your voice in service of what you love
• Reconnecting with the light within

Barbara McAfee is the author of Full Voice and Vocal Intelligence and has spent decades helping people discover greater freedom, authenticity, and possibility through their voices. Her work reminds us that when we transform our voice, our lives come along for the ride. To hear her song "Astonishing Light," visit https://barbaramcafee.bandcamp.com/track/astonishing-light.

Support the show

To make an appointment with Dr. Habib, visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.

What if, beneath all our fear, pain, confusion, and struggle, there is a deeper reality where there is only love?

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. John Wadude Laird, a physician, pioneer in integrative medicine, longtime Sufi practitioner, teacher, and co-founder of the University of Spiritual Healing and Sufism. For more than 40 years, Wadude’s spiritual path has been rooted in classical Sufism and the healing wisdom of the human heart.

Wadude shares the unexpected mystical experience in nature that changed the course of his spiritual life—a profound encounter with light and the realization that “there’s only love.” He recounts how seemingly random encounters and synchronicities gradually led him toward Sufism, and how his spiritual names, Qalbi and Wadude, became signposts pointing toward a life of love, surrender, and service.
We also explore the profound Sufi teachings of Jalal and Jamal—difficulty and beauty—and how illness, suffering, trauma, and hardship can become opportunities for love, healing, purification, and transformation.

Wadude shares a remarkable story of a kidney stone and a moment of surrender that became a “tasting” of the truth that Allah has power over all things. We talk about the danger of allowing trauma to become an identity, the challenge of maintaining faith during times of Jalal, and the spiritual practice of surrendering our need to control and understand everything.

Finally, we go deep into the levels and worlds of the heart. Wadude describes an extraordinary experience of moving from the chaotic surface of his heart into deeper levels of compassion, love, and ultimately the soul’s continual remembrance: la ilaha illallah—there is no god but God. He offers a beautiful reminder that beneath the fear, division, and turmoil of our ordinary experience, there is an inner light and a deeper place within us that we can return to through spiritual practice and remembrance.

This is a conversation about Sufism, spirituality, spiritual healing, mystical experience, surrender, trauma, suffering, the heart, remembrance, and divine love—and about learning to trust that even when we cannot see the larger picture, our lives may be unfolding within a deeper wisdom and love.

In this episode, we explore:

• The mystical experience of “there is only love”
• Spiritual awakening, and finding a spiritual path
• How synchronicities can reveal a deeper spiritual guidance
• Sufism and the wisdom of the heart
• Jalal and Jamal: difficulty and beauty
• Finding love, healing, and transformation in suffering
• Trauma, identity, and the danger of spiritualizing or judging our pain
• Complete prostration and surrender to Allah
• The difference between knowing about God and tasting spiritual truth
• The deeper levels and worlds of the heart
• Remembrance (dhikr) and la ilaha illallah
• Finding an inner place of love, compassion, safety, and hope
• Living from the deeper reality that there is only love

Support the show

To make an appointment with Dr. Habib, visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.