Creatives are often told business has to be rigid, serious, and exhausting — spreadsheets, rules, and hustle until you lose the joy that got you started. But what if the real rebellion is treating your business like a game instead of a grind? In this energizing conversation, James sits down with Paul Pape, creator of Gamify Business and the beloved “Santa for Nerds,” to explore how game mechanics can transform the way entrepreneurs think, work, and stay inspired.

Paul breaks down the psychology of leveling up, why constraints are actually gameplay (not cages), and how to protect your passion when real-world realities start wearing you down. They dig into burnout cycles, decision fatigue, creative identity, and how reframing your workflow through a “character sheet” can unlock clarity and momentum.

Whether you're a full-time artist, a side-hustler, or just a human trying to build a life you love, this episode gives you permission to make the process playful again — and become the hero of your own adventure.

00:00 – Gaming, constraints, and the balloon metaphor Why rules aren’t cages — they’re flexible boundaries you can push and shape.

00:55 – Introduction to Paul & the Gamify Business concept James frames the problem creatives face: burnout, disillusionment, and the myth that business must be joyless.

02:02 – Meet Paul Pape Paul’s background as “Santa for Nerds” and how he fell into creative business coaching.

03:30 – The burnout cycle creatives face Why passionate beginners lose momentum — and how pricing, clients, and pressure play into it.

04:33 – The Twitch years & the birth of his coaching method Paul explains how livestreaming his work connected him with stuck creatives.

06:23 – Gamifying business for his first clients The origin story: turning business roles into characters and obstacles into monsters.

07:49 – Why gaming principles translate so well to creative work Leveling systems, rewards, small wins, and understanding constraints.

09:07 – Games Paul plays & the value of short-form escapism A fun detour into attention, downtime, and why the “episodic” matters.

11:12 – Creativity outside the craft James shares how he made the business side of photography creative when the work wasn’t.

12:38 – Who Paul works with now Not just artists — anyone who problem-solves is a creative.

13:50 – Grinding: the gaming term that explains real life Why tedious tasks matter and how to make peace with them.

16:55 – The two questions Paul asks every new client The Passion Question & The Differentiation Question — the seeds of your “character sheet.”

18:05 – Riding the dragon of passion Why passion is the only sustainable fuel — and why chasing fame/fortune leads to burnout.

19:56 – The confidence spell How authentic passion creates magnetism; your 100 true fans.

22:20 – Rejection as data, not failure No = not your customer.

25:24 – Breaking “the way it’s always been done” Rewriting broken systems, expectations, and training culture.

29:57 – Ownership & mowing your own path Why entrepreneurship is choosing your own adventure (literally).

31:22 – Not everyone is built for entrepreneurship — and that’s okay How personality plays into role, structure, and fulfillment.

33:33 – The lawn-mowing guy metaphor Pushing boundaries, dealing with critics, and doing the work anyway.

34:56 – Decision fatigue & gamifying workflow How to simplify choices and avoid overwhelmed brain.

37:48 – A cautionary tale: over-ordering inventory The Chocolate Mii story + the danger of assumptions.

40:08 – The quickest way to gamify your life Download the free “character sheet” and start with introspection.

45:24 – Constraints as gameplay Seeing rules as flexible, not fixed.

49:03 – Failure as a step, not a stop Why creatives must fail forward — a central theme of Paul’s work.

50:23 – James’ Pomodoro twist & personal game mechanics Using timed constraints to stay focused and present.

53:37 – Understanding your “stats” Breaking down strengths, weaknesses, and capacity like a character build.

59:20 – Final words from Paul “Life is an adventure — don’t be an NPC.”

• Gamify Business (Paul’s website): http://gamifybusiness.com

• Free Character Sheet + Starter Chapters: http://gamifybusiness.com/podcast