Ministry moves at the speed of relationships.

Ten years into his church planting journey, Oscar Perez* talks with me about a leadership philosophy that is informed by the concept of “horizontal leadership,” the opposite of hierarchy. Our conversation is inspired by Gary Hamel’s The Future of Management, published by the Harvard Business Review. A lot of times, marketplace leadership books don’t transfer well to church leadership, but Oscar makes a compelling argument that horizontal and collaborative leadership can lead to healthier churches, ministry, and more flourishing in the Kingdom of God.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**The Future of Management by Gary Hamel

*Oscar is the lead pastor and church planter of VividLife church in Plano, Texas. He also coaches pastors with Thriving in Ministry. Follow him on FB and IG.

“My growing love for the clowns in Rome made me desire to clown around a little myself and to speak about such foolish things as being alone, treasuring emptiness, standing naked before God, and simply seeing things for what they are. I came to feel that in this full, imposing, venerable, and busy city there must be a very deep desire to live out the other side of our being, the side that wants to play, dance, smile, and do many other useless things." -Henri Nouwen

On this episode, my guest Rebecca Johnston* talks about making the adjustment to pastoring solo during a crisis in her family. When trouble hits, we all need to remember what is most important and return to the grounding and sometimes “foolish” practices that help us stay anchored in the life of faith. Our discussion of Henri Nouwen’s book Clowning in Rome: Reflections on Solitude, Celibacy, Prayer and Contemplation provided a great frame for our conversation.

01:30 Planting Microchurches

12:30 What is “dinner church”?

17:20 Pastoring through a spouse’s mental health crisis

27:29 About Henri Nouwen and Clowning in Rome

31:45 Four “clown-like elements for the spiritual life.

33:00 What does celibacy as “embracing emptiness” mean for single and married folks?

34:45 How celibacy teaches the church about God’s nature.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**Clowning in Rome: Reflections on Solitude, Celibacy, Prayer and Contemplation

*Rebecca is an intentionally co-vocational church pastor, ordained minister, grad student, mom of two, and proud midwesterner. You can follow her house-church renovations on IG.

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." -C.S. Lewis

Sometimes ministry seems absolutely impossible. And it is, when we rely on our own strength and skillsets. What does it look like to keep coming back to the transcendent Source at work in our lives—God who wants to bring resurrection and new life to the world?

I explore this question with my guest, Mandy Smith, a pastor and award-winning author and speaker. Our conversation is inspired by two books. First, Mandy’s own Confessions of an Amateur Saint: The Christian Leader’s Journey from Self-Sufficiency to Reliance on God and John Hendrix’s graphic novel, The Mythmakers: The Remarkable Fellowship between C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien.

Resources Mentioned & Affiliate Links:**Confessions of an Amateur Saint: The Christian Leader’s Journey from Self-Sufficiency to Reliance on God by Mandy SmithThe Vulnerable Pastor: How Human Limitations Empower Our Ministry by Mandy SmithUnfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith beyond the Baggage of Western Culture by Mandy SmithThe Mythmakers: The Remarkable Fellowship of C.S. Lewis & J.R.R. Tolkien (A Graphic Novel) by John HendrixThe Faithful Spy: Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Plot to Kill Hitler by John HendrixThe Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. LewisTolkien On Fairy-Stories by J.R.R. TolkienThe Lord of the Rings Trilogy by J.R.R. TolkienHow (Not) to Be Secular: Reading Charles Taylor by James K.A. SmithA Secular Age by Charles TaylorRe-Enchanting the Text by Cheryl Bridges Johns

*Follow Mandy on IG and learn more about her ministry at https://thewayistheway.org.

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