In this episode, Jen shares a personal update and announces that the podcast will be on hiatus.

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Downloadable Handout: 3 Surprising Things US National Guidelines Say About VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Checklist: The 5 Simple Steps to Planning a VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Report: Top 5 Uterine Rupture Myths Debunked Once and For All | VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking & Continuing Education Training with Jen Kamel- VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education

Music produced by (Analogue)/(prod. Analogue).

Instagram: @prod.analogue

Licia Popernack was told that she had a curved tailbone and would never give birth vaginally.

And after two cesareans, both after reaching 10 centimeters and pushing for hours, could that be true? Plus, she was only five feet and one inch tall...

Licia shares with us the challenges she faced on her journey to a victorious hospital VBA2C from friends and family who wondered why this was so important to her to skepticism from healthcare providers and her own fears.

She reflects upon her choices during her first and second pregnancies and labors, including why she didn't, and then did, get an epidural as well as reveals how she processed her cesareans.

She recounts how her third labor was different than her first two - including her nurse who helped her into various positions that facilitated her VBA2C - showing that if you just change one thing, you can have a totally different outcome.

With her two prior FTP cesareans, the VBAC calculator would have predicted very low odds, but Licia pursued her dream of a vaginal birth proving that it is possible!

00:00 Meet Licia Popernack!

03:44 Why She Wanted to Share Her Story

08:02 What Her Doctor Said About Her VBAC Odds

08:52 Her First Pregnancy

10:53 Biggest Regret: "But That Locked Her In..."

12:01 Pushed For Four Hours, Then Cesarean

14:32 Her Doctor Had An Early Flight

15:24 Postpartum: "I Felt Really Isolated"

18:05 What Would Have Felt Supportive and Validating to Her

20:49 Download Our Free Resources

21:43 What Was She Told About VBAC?

23:00 Her Second Pregnancy

24:43 Changed Providers at 34 Weeks!

27:54 "Why Don't You Just Schedule Another Cesarean?"

31:07 Her Second Labor: "She Said I Could Never Have a Vaginal Birth"

32:25 Her Decision To Get An Epidural

34:12 Vacuum, FTP, Second Cesarean, and NICU

35:58 Processing Her Planned VBAC and Second Cesarean

39:08 Pregnant After Two Cesareans, Now What?

42:21 How Her Third Labor Was Different Than The First Two

48:23 " Made Me Get Into Positions That Weren't Comfortable For Me"

51:30 Did Anyone Mention Placenta Accreta?

52:39 Her VBA1C and VBA2C Advice

55:41 What She Would Have Done Differently

58:54 "Changed Me To Be More Accepting Of Things"

59:54 Advice: "But My Doctor Won't Let Me Plan a VBAC"

01:00:55 "There's Not One Thing That's Right For Everyone"

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Downloadable Checklist: The 5 Simple Steps to Planning a VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Report: Top 5 Uterine Rupture Myths Debunked Once and For All | VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking & Continuing Education Training with Jen Kamel- VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E7 40+ VBAC Myths Busted! Plus Hospital VBA2C After Uterine Defect - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• Vaginal birth after two cesareans (VBA2C): An overview of the evidence - VBAC Facts® Article
• The Truth...

93% of women pregnant after one or more cesareans are not informed about the risk of placenta accreta spectrum that rises with each subsequent cesarean. Instead, they are assured that a repeat cesarean is safe and a planned VBAC is risky and, as a result, they schedule another cesarean.

Dawn Baranski was one of those women.

After enduring the bait and switch after her first cesarean, she had one more cesarean with her OB's assurance that placenta issues are a "one in a million chance."

When she got pregnant again after three cesareans, she developed placenta percreta - the most severe degree of placenta accreta spectrum - where the placenta grows through the uterine wall and attaches to other abdominal organs, most commonly the bladder.

The safest way for her baby to be born was a complicated cesarean hysterectomy ending her fertility.

Dawn recounts inadequate informed consent, her emotional and physical recovery from a cesarean hysterectomy, and why she considered an unassisted birth.

She shares how her hysterectomy impacts her health to this day as she manages a vaginal prolapse and rectocele and her important message for parents and health care professionals.

Jen also contrasts new research which found VBAC was accessible in only 16% of U.S. counties against a report from earlier this year where 84% of hospitals said they offered VBAC as well as her next virtual speaking engagement, opportunities for VBAC education for medical, midwifery, and nursing students, and reader feedback on therapeutic rest.

• 03:34 16% of US Counties Offer VBAC
• 11:06 Leapfrog Report: 84% of US Hospitals Offer VBAC
• 14:18 Next Speaking Engagement: Keynote at InJoy's 5th Annual (Virtual) Summit
• 16:29 VBAC Education for Medical, Midwifery, & Nursing Students
• 17:40 Reader Feedback: Therapeutic Rest & 24 Hour Labor Limit
• 19:51 Introducing Dawn  Baranski
• 20:50 Six Prior Vaginal Births, First Cesarean
• 22:20 Bait & Switch Strikes Again
• 24:49 What the OB Advised After Two Cesareans
• 26:29 Thought About Unassisted Birth, Had 3rd Cesarean
• 27:43 What the OB Said About Cesarean Complications
• 30:51 Mother's Autonomy & Decision Making Scale
• 32:18 Why She Wanted An Unassisted Birth After Three Cesareans
• 35:45 Why She Choose to Birth Her Baby in Texas
• 41:33 Birthing Her Baby via Cesarean Hysterectomy
• 45:18 Health Issues From Her Hysterectomy
• 47:13 Why She Had a Cesarean Hysterectomy For Her Percreta
• 49:33 Hysterectomy Induced Early Perimenopause/Menopause
• 51:00 Hormone Replacement Therapy During Perimenopause
• 51:50 How Recovery From a Cesarean Hysterectomy is Different Than a Cesarean
• 55:32 What Hysterectomy Has To Do With Vaginal Prolapse & Rectocele
• 57:44 Advice For Those Who Need A Cesarean Hysterectomy
• 58:39 "I Wouldn't Have Showed Up For My Scheduled C-Section"
• 01:00:07 Advice For Those Pregnant After One Cesarean
• 01:01:01 Advice For Those Pregnant After Two Cesareans
• 01:01:48 "There Was So Much Information That I Was Not Told"
• 01:02:24 Physician Dismisses Future Risks as "Theoretical"
• 01:05:14 "VBAC Poses Unnecessary Risk We Can Avoid Through C-Sections"
• 01:07:04 "It's Hard 'Cause I Don't Trust Them"
• 01:09:12 "We Don't Attend VBAC Because We Can Get Sued"
• 01:12:59 What She Would Say To The OB Who Performed Her First Cesarean
• 01:13:57 What Dawn Wants You To Know
• 01:15:02 How Her Births Have Changed Her
• 01:15:50 Her Advice: "My Doctor Won't Let Me Have a VBAC"

Want to suggest a guest we should interview, topic we should discuss, or share your birth story? You can at https://vbacfacts.com/podcast!

Never thought you would have an abortion? That's exactly what Wisconsin mom and maternal health advocate Megan Kling believed until she became pregnant with her third much wanted and planned child.

Megan courageously shares her deeply personal story of terminating two pregnancies for medical reasons. She discusses the profound impact of abortion restrictions, the challenges of navigating medical insurance, and the importance of advocating for safer maternal healthcare. Megan's story highlights the complexities behind abortion legislation, its real-life effects on everyday moms, the inadequacy of exceptions for the life of the mother, and how, if you can become pregnant, abortion laws impact you. She also addresses the concept of "babies born alive from botched abortions," how she coped with losing two much wanted children, and why she had to leave her state to access evidence based health care. Along the way, she shares how she traveled to a larger hospital to VBAC her second child with unsupportive providers as well as her subsequent plans to VBAC a second time at her local rural, community hospital, and how the June 2024 presidential debate propelled her participation in a political ad. Tune in to hear her powerful narrative that sheds light on why empathetic and evidence-based healthcare is crucial for all women.

00:00 Welcome to Episode 18!

03:29 Seeking Guests: Level 1 Hospitals That Offer VBAC

04:21 Meet Megan!

05:44 Why Share Her Story

07:07 If You Can Become Pregnant, Abortion Restrictions Can Impact You

11:18 First Pregnancy and Cesarean

13:14 No Mention of VBAC or Increased Risks After Cesarean

14:11 Pregnant Again, But Rural Hospital Says, "No VBACs"

17:32 VBAC Calculator Says 38%

18:54 Free VBAC Resources

19:48 "...I Guess We'll Let You Labor Anyway"

23:00 Third Pregnancy, Returns to Rural Hospital for Second VBAC

23:41 What Happens If I Decline a Cesarean?

25:47 Patients Are Not Obligated To Follow Hospital Policy

26:43 There Is Something Very Wrong

29:35 The Diagnosis

31:59 What Are The Abortion Laws In Wisconsin?

35:39 "Born Alive From Botched Abortions"

37:11 Pregnancy Is Too Complex To Legislate

38:02 How She Coped With Her Son's Passing

39:06 Ready To Try Again

40:04 Pregnant With Plans to VBAC at Community Hospital

43:06 And It Happens Again

44:09 Can't Access The Medications She Needs Due to Fear Surrounding Abortion Laws

47:09 "If I Had Not Experienced This, I Would've Never Known To Ask This Question"

48:14 Her Fourth Child's Birth

48:58 Umbilical Cord Abnormality

51:30 Why Did She Need To Leave The State?

52:32 How Abortion Bans Impact Health Care For All

55:33 Want to Learn More About VBAC?

56:53 Insurance May Not Cover Abortion Care (Even When Medically Indicated)

59:54 The Healthcare Gap Planned Parenthood Fills

01:01:29 Can You Get Pregnant? Abortion Laws Can Impact You.

01:03:09 What Has All This Media Exposure Been Like?

01:04:43 Agreeing To Be In A Political Ad

01:06:15 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes

01:09:15 Listen To The Voice Screaming Inside You

01:12:37 How She Has Grown

01:14:25 Advice For Women Pregnant With A Non-Viable Pregnancy

01:15:18 What She Wishes She Knew At The Beginning

01:16:45 The Ripple Effect Of Her Pregnancies

01:17:50 How She Engages With Healthcare Now

01:18:44 Jen's Experience With Misinformation & Pelvic Prolapse

01:20:40 Abortion Bans Do Not Care About The Life Of The Mother

01:23:32 Unintended Consequences & Abortion Bans

01:24:33 Make Your Voice Heard

01:25:12 Women's Health Is Inherently Political

01:26:31 Our Summer Hiatus, See You In The Fall

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should...

Confusion and fear over lawsuits drives health care in the US and even more so within obstetrics and midwifery. In the midst of defensive medicine as default, many clinicians miss the one decision that provides ultimate litigation protection.

Hermine Hayes-Klein is single handedly changing the landscape relative to litigation within maternal health care. An informed consent expert and international civil and human rights attorney, she specializes in the abuse of women and birthing people by the maternal health system.

We will discuss:

• the cognitive disconnect among healthcare providers regarding informed consent during pregnancy and childbirth
• legal cases that illustrate widespread rights violations
• her recent $1.73 million jury verdict
• the legal and ethical mandates that protect pregnant women's rights
• the role of lawyers in enforcing these rights
• conventional wisdom like "you'll never be sued for a cesarean" and "liability concerns makes us do it"
• how doctors will be held accountable for not respecting patient rights
• why "birth can't be planned" is insulting
• how juries recognize trauma as an injury that matters
• why clinicians should support women's choices even if it scares them

Additionally, Jen talks about her upcoming VBAC training for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and answers a reader's question about prior uterine dehiscence and future uterine rupture risk.

00:00 Welcome To Episode 17!

02:07 Next VBAC Facts® Training

03:58 Reader Question: Prior Uterine Dehiscence

11:23 Telemedicine VBAC Consults

12:44 Introducing Hermine Hayes-Klein

14:06 The Violation of Informed Consent

17:34 "You'll Never Be Sued For Doing a Cesarean" And Other Myths

18:57 Perverse Liability Incentives

20:12 VBAC Resources

21:06 Doctors Will Be Held Accountable For Not Respecting Client's Rights

21:42 Rinat Dray's Forced Cesarean

25:33 $1.73 Million Dollar Judgement

26:39 Cognitive Disconnect in Maternity Care

31:18 "Birth Can't Be Planned" Is Insulting

32:11 Sample Birth Plan Language

32:31 Hooked Up & Induced, No Medical Reason

33:15 Running, Sobbing, Sleepwalking

33:44 Diagnosed with "Adjustment Disorder" Instead of PTSD

34:07 "The Kind of Abuse That Happens To Women Every Day"

35:00 "The Baby's Healthy, Why Are We Even Here?"

35:49 Babies Need Their Mothers To Be Healthy

36:11 Juries Recognize Trauma As An Injury That Matters

36:50 Hold Doctors Accountable For Doing What The Law Requires

36:59 Next Case Challenges, "You Are Not Allowed"

39:12 "The Very Real Risks of Cesarean Are Dumped Onto The Birthing Patient"

39:46 Birth Trauma Not About Mode of Delivery

40:22 Who is Liable for Complications?

41:17 "Liability Makes Us Do It" Is A Lie

41:42 VBAC Facts Courses

45:06 Should We "Go Slow?" Are We "There Yet?"

46:26 The Law of Informed Consent Means...

46:56 "Keep Telling Them That They Have To Strap Down For The Belt"

48:26 What Violating Informed Consent Looks Like

49:46 Bodily Autonomy "Goes Both Ways?"

51:15 Let's Be Clear About Maternal Death

52:33 News Articles When Women Die During Childbirth, Often, It's Cesarean

53:30 We Are Pro Evidence Based Care and Informed Consent

55:21 OBGYNs Should Support Patient Decisions, Even If It Scares Them

57:01 When An OB Realized Her Informed Consent Process Was Coercive

58:24 OB's Testimony Regarding Informed Consent

01:00:32 Women and Birthing People Are The Captain Of The Ship

01:01:13 Rights Exist Even In Rural Hospitals

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to

Want to change hospital policy, VBAC ban, placenta policy, or otherwise? Barbara Stratton is your gal.

In this interview, Barbara reflects back on over 20 years of activism and shares her biggest tips to changing hospital policy as well as what first time parents wish they knew.

She shares insights on speaking to the media, planning a rally, searching for the perfect VBAC plaintiff as well as the secret to activism.

The discussion also includes:

• how Medicare/Medicaid said hospitals cannot enforce VBAC bans,
• caution for hospital based childbirth classes
• as well as birth centers inside hospitals, and
• why she created her Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set!

Plus Jen shares:

• her upcoming speaking engagement with the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health,
• reader Katelyn's experience with the VBAC calculator, and
• observations from VBAC Facts'® first month on TikTok including
• why mothers shouldn't always "listen to your doctor" and
• the privilege embedded in the statement "find another provider/hospital who is supportive of VBAC."

All this and more in episode 16 of The VBAC Facts® Podcast!

01:55 Upcoming Events & News

03:53 Reader Katelyn's Experience with the VBAC Calculator

07:16 TikTok: "Listen to Your Doctor!"

16:01 Anonymous, Disrespectful, and Full of Disdain

18:21 Showing Up on Social Media

19:47 Concerns About Litigation

27:21 The Bait & Switch

31:31 Why "Find Another Hospital" Is So Hard

34:39 Meet Barbara Stratton

35:20 Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set

37:04 Her Cesarean Poem

40:24 Her Journey to Birth Activism

45:33 Finding Post-Cesarean Support

46:57 Learns About VBAC Bans

48:02 Planning Her First VBAC Ban Rally

55:07 Fighting the VBAC Ban

55:58 First VBAC Ban Reversed!

56:20 Woman Wants VBA2C, Declines Third Cesarean

57:52 Maryland Attorney General: "Generally it is not legal to section a woman against her consent"

59:34 Resources for Fighting VBAC Bans

01:00:43 Goal: To Reverse All VBAC Bans

01:04:17 Hospitals Cannot Enforce VBAC Bans

01:09:28 The Secret to Activism

01:15:50 Work with Barbara 1:1

01:16:49 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes at the NIH VBAC Conference

01:19:02 Changing Hospital Placenta Policy

01:21:16 Examples of In-Hospital Advocacy

01:22:44 Biggest Issue in Birth Activism: The Elusive First Time Mother

01:24:58 Mothers: "I Wish I Had Known..."

01:32:28 Most Successful VBAC Ban Reversal Strategies

01:35:00 A Forced Cesarean

01:44:47 The Idea of Fault

01:47:21 VBAC Planning Tips

01:52:00 Hospital Based Childbirth Classes

01:55:14 Searching for the Perfect VBAC Plaintiff

01:56:11 Denied VBAC a Week Before She Was Due

01:56:44 Physician Preference Drives VBAC Ban Reversal

02:00:31 Advice for Birth Professionals

02:04:39 Key Differences in Birth Centers

02:07:19 Advice for Parents

02:09:14 Mutual Appreciation ❤️

02:12:29 VBAC Bait & Switch

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Downloadable Checklist: The 5 Simple Steps to Planning a VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Report: Top 5 Uterine Rupture Myths Debunked Once and For All | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Schedule a consulting call with Barbara...

What do you do when you are pregnant after a cesarean and the only hospital in your community has a VBAC ban? Come hear the story of Dr. Denise Jaimes-Villanueva PsyD of Santa Barbara, California as she shares everything she endured to avoid compulsory surgery.

From the challenges around finding a provider in a community where the influence of the hostile VBAC climate permeated to the financial and emotional factors that influenced her decisions, she discusses the journey of processing the grief of her births, what she would do differently, and the lessons she learned along the way.

Her story illustrates why the refrain, "just find a supportive provider or hospital" is often trite and why every hospital with a L&D unit in the US should support and offer VBAC, as the American College of OB/GYNs has explicitly stated since 2017.

• 00:42 Welcome Denise!
• 02:03 Her First Birth
• 14:21 Navigating VBAC Bans
• 24:12 Hiring Midwives to Labor at Home
• 34:58 The Toll of Hostile Climate VBAC Planning
• 36:46 Lessons She Learned
• 50:18 Processing the Impact of Those Births
• 54:40 Trusting Providers is Still Hard
• 57:45 Her Message for Parents
• 59:54 Her Message to Clinicians
• 01:01:28 Her Message to Policymakers

If you have a question about a prior episode, a topic you'd like me to feature, a guest you'd like me to interview (including yourself!), or a "VBAC win" (birth stories, policy changes, advocacy/legal victories) you'd like to share, go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast.

• Downloadable Checklist: The 5 Simple Steps to Planning a VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Report: Top 5 Uterine Rupture Myths Debunked Once and For All | VBAC Facts®
• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• E3: "The Rules About VBAC" Part 1: A Deep Dive into US VBAC Guidelines with Jen Kamel - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E5: Autonomy, Authority, Coercion & Consent: Who Decides in Maternity Care? - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• E4: “The Rules About VBAC” Part 2: A Deep Dive into US VBAC Guidelines with Jen Kamel - The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• "No one can force you to have a cesarean" is false | VBAC Facts®
• Calling women who plan home VBACs "stupid" misses the point | VBAC Facts®
• How to File a Complaint for Obstetric Violence or Mistreatment in Birth - Birth Monopoly
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of the Top Three VBAC Myths! | VBAC Facts®
• VBAC Facts® Professional Membership | VBAC Facts® Continuing Education
• Too Bad We Can't Just "Ban" Accreta-The Downstream Consequences of VBAC Bans - VBAC Facts® Article

Ever use the VBAC calculator? Then you will want to listen to physician scientist and VBAC calculator researcher Dr. Nicholas Rubashkin, MD, PhD, an Associate Professor at UC San Francisco, as he reviews the historical and cultural implications of the VBAC calculator, a tool used to predict vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC) odds.

The conversation uncovers how the calculator has propagated racist assumptions that Black and Hispanic bodies are less capable of vaginal birth, the consequences of those assumptions on maternal care, and the problematic "60% threshold."

They explore how to shift the conversation from risk-based to goal-oriented, how problems remain even after race and ethnicity were removed from the tool, recent research out of Sweden, and the fundamental ethical issues at the root of the calculator.

The episode also addresses the concept of "controlling risk in advance," ethical implications of using surgery as a default solution, why some midwives don't use the calculator, and provides insights into future research and practices aimed at increasing equitable access to VBAC.

02:11 His Training and Background

09:25 How He Decided to Study the VBAC Calculator

11:25 Is VBAC a Political Issue?

13:38 New Limitations on Research Grants

16:48 The Many VBAC Calculators

20:37 How to Define Uterine Rupture

21:45 Race as a Risk Factor

23:28 The Power of Lived Experience in Research

25:55 It's Not Race, It's Racism

27:56 How Race & Racism Were Built Into the Calculator

29:28 Race & Ethnicity Removed from the VBAC Calculator

32:13 A New Form of Scientific Racism

33:03 Removing Race, Problems Remain

35:34 Response to VBAC Calculator Critique

38:34 Reader Q: Validate Prior FTP Cesarean

42:27 Swedish Study: 10cm FTP Diagnosis & Future VBAC Odds

43:36 Script for Using the Calculator

44:44 Reader Q: Psychosocial Elements of FTP

47:07 Science Beyond VBAC Calculator Comes From Oncology!

47:59 Calculator Contributes to Informed Consent?

51:04 Where to Start: VBAC Calculator & Informed Consent

54:01 Controlling Risk in Advance

01:01:02 The Fundamental Ethical Issue

01:03:16 The 60% Threshold

01:08:02 The "Necessity" of The 40/41-Week Scheduled Cesarean

01:10:28 Goal Oriented Conversations

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• Downloadable Checklist: The 5 Simple Steps to Planning a VBAC | VBAC Facts®
• Downloadable Report: Top 5 Uterine Rupture Myths Debunked Once and For All | VBAC Facts®
• Contribute to the VBAC Facts® BIPOC Scholarship Fund | VBAC Facts®
• Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Calculator (MFMU)
• Episode 6 Decoding the VBAC Calculator: Science, Bias, and Decision Making | The VBAC Facts® Podcast - Apple Podcasts
• Study finds that VBAC calculators underpredict VBAC odds. They are also racially biased. | VBAC Facts®
• Consulting for Parents, Professionals, Legal & Policy Teams │ VBAC Facts®
• Professional Speaking with Jen Kamel │ VBAC Facts®
• Sign up for your copy of...