Épisodes

  • Lucy Elder-Slow on Teaching Permaculture, Learning Pathways, and Designing Education with Children

    Lucy Elder-Slow on Teaching Permaculture, Learning Pathways, and Designing Education with Children
    Jan 23 2026
    In episode 115 of the Permaculture Vine Podcast, Cormac Harkin speaks with Lusi Alderslowe about her background in permaculture, how she came to teaching, and the different ways permaculture design can be applied to education, community work, and working with children.Lusi begins by introducing herself and explaining that she lives in South West Scotland, in Dumfries and Galloway. She notes that she has mostly lived in Scotland, including time spent living in Glasgow and Edinburgh, before settling where she is now. She describes herself as a permaculture educator and shares that she has been practicing permaculture since 2005, when she first studied a permaculture design course.Before studying permaculture, Lusi completed a master’s degree in human ecology. She explains that this felt like the academic side of permaculture and included concepts such as head, heart, and hand. One of the modules she studied was eco-psychology, and she explains that her interest has always been strongly connected to nature and how people relate to it.Lusi first heard about permaculture through a friend who was studying in Newcastle. This happened after she had been living and working in Africa, where she experienced living in community and living off-grid. She reflects on how this experience helped her realise how wealthy people are in industrialised countries, how much is already available, and how much is not actually needed. She describes permaculture as offering positive solutions to global problems through everyday actions.She went on to complete her permaculture design course in 2005, shortly after the birth of her son. She explains that she attended the course over weekends and brought her baby with her, completing the course in person. A few years later, she began teaching permaculture herself, moving into education alongside raising her children.After completing her design course, Lusi enrolled in the permaculture diploma. She explains that the diploma involves completing ten designs and that these designs can be varied. She describes working on designs related to parenting, community gardens, personal sustainability, and garden design. One of her early projects was Nurture in Nature, an outdoor playgroup for parents and young children living in an inner-city environment. She ran this group for six years as part of her diploma journey.Lusi explains that one of the strengths of the diploma is that it supports people to do projects they are already motivated to work on. She describes the diploma as a way to receive feedback on designs and develop confidence, while also allowing flexibility in how work is presented. Writing is not the only option, and she discusses alternatives such as presenting work verbally or through recorded conversations.As the conversation continues, Lusi explains what motivated her to start teaching permaculture. She describes noticing that there were no permaculture design courses being taught in the cities where she lived. Rather than waiting for someone else to fill that gap, she decided to organise courses herself. This led her to complete teacher training and to organise permaculture courses by bringing teachers to her location rather than travelling elsewhere.She talks through how she developed as a teacher by co-teaching, assisting more experienced tutors, and building session plans over time. She explains that this approach helped her gain confidence and made it possible to eventually lead full permaculture design courses herself. She later became the lead tutor on two-week courses in Scotland and Ireland, as well as running long-running weekend-based courses in Glasgow.Lusi describes how her permaculture design courses have evolved over time. More recently, she has developed a hybrid model that combines online materials with in-person practical days. The online content allows participants to revisit videos and tools when working on future designs, while the in-person days focus on outdoor learning, visiting community gardens, and seeing different systems in practice.A significant part of Lusi’s work focuses on children and education. She discusses teaching teachers, working with schools, and developing projects that combine outdoor learning with subjects such as maths and literacy. She describes writing booklets for parents and carers that introduce outdoor activities linked to curriculum learning, as well as working on materials designed directly for children.Lusi also reflects on large-scale projects she has been involved in, including funded programmes that reached thousands of people through outdoor learning activities. She explains how permaculture ethics are embedded into all of this work and how concepts such as earth care, people care, and fair share are introduced in practical, accessible ways.Towards the end of the conversation, Lusi shares her perspective on why this work matters to her personally. She explains that permaculture gives her energy and a sense of meaning...
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    46 min
  • 114. Permaculture Events

    114. Permaculture Events
    Dec 16 2025
    In this episode of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, hosted by Cormac Harkin, we focused on permaculture events. The conversation brought together guests from Permaculture Canada, Creasol Permaculture, and Candlelit Tales to discuss their direct experiences with attending, hosting, and creating events connected to permaculture, education, and collaboration.The discussion covered personal experiences of events, challenges in organising them, the role of storytelling within event spaces, and a detailed outline of a forthcoming permaculture design course and gathering in Guatemala.Who’s at the TableLindsay Brandon Lindsay joined the conversation from San Pancho, Mexico. She described her role working with Permaculture Canada and her current context of travelling, speaking at conferences, and participating in meetings with regenerative consultants focused on off-grid living and recycling initiatives.Hu Man Hu Man appeared alongside Lindsay as part of Permaculture Canada, also speaking from San Pancho, Mexico. Their participation was framed within the same on-site context of visiting a recycling centre and engaging with regenerative consultants.Neal Hegarty Neal joined from Lake Atitlán, Guatemala. He spoke about his background learning and teaching permaculture through events, his work in project management and design, and his current involvement in hosting and organising a permaculture design course and event series based in Guatemala.Aron Hegarty Aron joined remotely and described himself as a storyteller and actor with a background in creating and hosting storytelling events through Candle of Tales. He explained his connection to permaculture through attending courses run by his brother Neal and his role in bringing storytelling and performance into collaborative events.Experiences of Permaculture EventsThe conversation began with participants sharing their personal experiences of permaculture events. Cormac noted limited experience with in-person events, describing attending Permaculture Ireland and finding the format challenging for his preferences. Others described a mix of in-person and online events, including conferences, design courses, farmer-to-farmer trainings, festivals, and retreats.Lindsay described being involved in a wide range of events, often as a speaker within broader conferences not exclusively focused on permaculture. Neal outlined how events were central to his early teaching work, particularly in rural and agricultural contexts, before stepping back due to the stress of organising them. Aron discussed his long-term experience producing live storytelling events and festivals, including the logistical and emotional demands of event creation.Learning and Collaboration at EventsSeveral speakers described events as spaces where learning happens through direct interaction. Neal discussed peer-to-peer learning as a key feature of in-person gatherings, contrasting it with online formats. He described how group settings allowed participants to share ideas, collaborate, and complete practical work together.Lindsay and Hu Man shared examples of informal and spontaneous events, including gatherings created while travelling, where meeting local people led to the exchange of practical information. Aron described his own event format combining shared meals, discussion circles, and performance, noting how participants connected skills and resources directly through those gatherings.Storytelling in Event SpacesStorytelling was discussed throughout the episode as part of how events are structured and experienced. Aron described storytelling as central to his work and explained how it is incorporated into events through performance, improvisation, and shared narratives. Neal connected storytelling to how people frame projects and personal goals within permaculture contexts.Lindsay spoke about listening carefully to individuals to understand their motivations and goals, both in human interactions and in site observation. She described reading “the story of the land” through observation during site visits, noting similarities between working with people and working with landscapes.Challenges of Hosting and Attending EventsThe group discussed practical challenges associated with events. These included travel distances, infrastructure capacity, food provision, water access, sanitation, and managing participant energy. Several speakers highlighted food as a critical factor in maintaining morale and effectiveness during longer gatherings.They also discussed the organisational effort required to host events, including the stress of planning and promotion, and the need to develop additional skills beyond teaching or facilitation.Speaking and Teaching at EventsWhen asked how people become speakers at events, Lindsay explained that she actively applies to events and also receives invitations through professional networks and online visibility. Neal described being invited to speak locally in Guatemala, ...
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    52 min
  • 113: Colin Crawshaw, Creating Heaven on Earth!

    113: Colin Crawshaw, Creating Heaven on Earth!
    Nov 26 2025

    In episode 113 of The Permaculture Vine podcast, Cormac chats with Colin Crawshaw, who lives on a steep farm in Switzerland between 860 and nearly 1,000 metres in elevation. The land had been fallow for 70 years and previously supported families for centuries. Colin frames his move there as part of a commitment to contribute to practical ecological solutions.

    Colin completed a Permaculture Design Certificate with Geoff Lawton in Hungary. He highlights teachers and participants he met there, including people working on projects in France, Romania, and Austria, as well as practitioners focused on animal care, mapping, cob building, and rocket-stove systems. Several instructors and classmates are identified as influential to his ongoing work.

    Significant personal changes followed the course, including the end of his marriage and an active legal process to determine whether he will retain responsibility for the land. His stated intention, if granted full responsibility, is to establish a permaculture foundation on the site and create space for a long-term community of at least eleven residents.

    Recent developments on the property include expanded grazing, increased animal numbers, creation of 13–14 water catchments, new terraces, additional tree planting, and access agreements with neighbouring landowners. Colin identifies sun exposure, predictable winds, water management, and windbreak establishment as major environmental challenges. Attention has shifted toward completing Zone 0 and Zone 1 areas due to public visibility from a hiking trail crossing the property.

    Colin commissioned mapping work from designer Ben Missimer and uses the resulting set of maps to plan access, water flow, and future infrastructure. While awaiting legal decisions, he continues essential daily work such as grazing management and animal care and is learning design software to prepare plans for presentation to local authorities.

    Long-term plans include a connected pond system inspired by mountain-based projects, expansion of grazing across up to 50 hectares, development of on-site processing facilities, a restaurant serving farm-grown produce, educational areas, community gathering spaces such as a peace circle, visitor infrastructure, and workspaces for more than two dozen people.

    Practical topics in the conversation include terracing methods, material options, strategies to limit wasp nesting near structures, and the importance of habitat creation. Colin emphasises the realities of physical land work, the value of showing mistakes openly, and the need for more hands-on practitioners in permaculture. He also comments on navigating local bureaucracy, including examples of retrospective approvals and ethical civil disobedience in ecological restoration.



    Get full access to Cormac Harkin at cormacharkin.substack.com/subscribe
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    54 min
  • 112. Marty Ware: Inside the Garden Creator Hub

    112. Marty Ware: Inside the Garden Creator Hub
    Nov 25 2025

    In episode 112 of The Permaculture Vine podcast, Cormac chats withpisode features Marty Ware, horticulturist, long-time gardening educator, and founder of the Garden Creator Hub. Marty began sharing small-space growing, worm farming, and composting online more than 15 years ago while raising his daughter as a single parent. His background includes agribusiness, horticulture, organic production, and early exposure to biodynamics.

    Marty encountered permaculture concepts during his agricultural studies in Australia, where ideas from Bill Mollison and David Holmgren were already circulating. Initial exposure focused on food-forest regeneration and perennial ecological systems. Over time he incorporated no-dig methods, companion planting, worm integration, composting, animal systems and closed-loop cycles into his own approach.

    His current property in Mullumbimby (800m²) includes an emerging food forest containing lemon myrtle, macadamia, mulberry, guava, mango and edible groundcovers such as betel leaf. Biomass inputs like sugarcane mulch support system health. Chickens contribute fertiliser, scratching, and heat through a deep-litter system. Multiple worm systems feed directly into his composting operation, forming the basis of a small local compost business.

    Practical observations from poultry keeping include:

    * new chickens settle best when confined for several days before free-ranging,

    * integration of two flocks often requires separate housing,

    * elevated feeders prevent contamination,

    * chicken tractors are effective for fertilising new ground.

    Quail management is also covered, including the issues caused by receiving mostly males, the behavioural problems that resulted, and the improved results from hand-reared female quail sourced later.

    Worm-integrated composting forms a major part of Marty’s work. Worms accelerate decomposition, increase nutrient availability, and improve compost structure. Connected piles allow worms to move into favourable temperatures, and vermicomposting becomes a cornerstone input across the garden. Marty has used these methods for years while supplying compost locally and is considering new educational offerings around composting inside his community.

    Guidance for new gardening creators includes keeping production simple, avoiding the pressure to appear as an expert too early, using a phone and basic microphone, and letting audience questions determine early content. Problem-solving, clear value, and authenticity matter more than heavy editing or algorithm chasing.

    The Garden Creator Hub is presented as an education and community space built on Skool. The structure includes free and paid tiers, grow-together challenges, cohort-style progress, and direct coaching for premium members. The platform enables stronger interaction than typical social media, supports skill development, and links directly to Marty’s composting work and brand.

    Starting points for new gardeners emphasise very small, manageable steps: microgreens and baby-leaf crops for fast success, followed by simple crops such as cherry tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, and container-based growing. Gradual expansion prevents overwhelm and improves long-term consistency.

    The Garden Creator Hub

    https://www.skool.com/the-garden-creator-hub-3162



    Get full access to Cormac Harkin at cormacharkin.substack.com/subscribe
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    59 min
  • 111. Agrivoltaics: Integrating Agriculture and Solar Farms

    111. Agrivoltaics: Integrating Agriculture and Solar Farms
    Nov 12 2025
    In this week’s episode of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, Graham Towerton from Permaculture Canada discussed a recent tree-planting project at a solar farm in Adrian, Michigan, and the broader concept of agrivoltaics—incorporating agriculture within solar farms.The Tree Planting ProjectGraham’s team recently completed a $325,000 contract to plant 1,122 Black Hills spruce trees around a solar farm. The project took six weeks and involved replacing trees that a previous contractor had planted, more than half of which died within the first year.The trees are required by local ordinance to create a 150-foot buffer zone around the solar farm. They must be evergreens, planted at 10-foot intervals, and six feet tall at installation.The team included Graham’s daughter Lily, Azura, farm manager Julia, and several other participants. The work involved removing dead trees, digging holes, planting new trees, removing cages and burlap, and mulching.The Ordinance IssueThe local township ordinance requires that all vegetation inside the solar farm be kept under 12 inches in height year-round. This requirement was causing unintended problems.Graham observed that monarch butterflies and other insects were abundant on the property when the clover and other plants were allowed to grow. After the required mowing, the insects disappeared because their food source was gone.When Graham presented this observation at a township board meeting, board members were receptive to discussing changes to the ordinance. He plans to work with them to revise the rules to allow for deeper vegetation and more diverse plantings.What Agrivoltaics MeansAgrivoltaics refers to incorporating agriculture into solar farms. The specific options depend on the design of the solar installation.Graham’s neighbouring solar farm has panels mounted 5-6 feet off the ground on north-south rotating bars that track the sun from east to west. This design limits what can grow directly underneath.Some other solar farm designs are more accommodating:* Dutch solar farms mount panels 30-40 feet high, allowing tractors underneath* Some newer panels are translucent, allowing light through for vegetation* Circular tube designs that rotate while following the sunMichigan State University has developed guidelines for grazing sheep in solar farms. Sheep don’t climb on panels like goats do, making them a better option for vegetation management.Buffer Zone OpportunitiesThe solar farm has about 25 acres of buffer zones outside the fence that are currently just pasture. The company has told Graham they’re open to ideas for using this space.Potential uses include:* Community gardens* Tree farms to grow seedlings* Regenerative pasture with livestock grazing* Perennial crops like raspberries and asparagus* Wildflower meadows along stream bedsThe solar company requires that any vegetation be planted no closer than 3X its maximum height from the nearest panel (to avoid shading). This only applies on the east and west sides of the arrays, not north and south.Farm Land and Solar DevelopmentThe conversation touched on concerns about solar farms taking up agricultural land.Graham noted that in Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio, farmland is disappearing under both urban sprawl and solar farms. The particular 160-acre section that became the solar farm next to his property sold for approximately $2.5 million before the solar development.However, he pointed out that much US farmland isn’t producing food for human consumption:* 97% of corn (100 million acres) is GMO and goes to animal feed and ethanol* 96-97% of soybeans (100 million acres) are GMO, crushed for biodiesel oil and animal meal for livestock* Wheat (80 million acres) is the main grain crop still grown for direct human consumptionThe traditional Midwest farming model—where a family would grow diverse crops and raise animals on 80 acres—largely disappeared in the 1940s-50s, replaced by large-scale monoculture production.Future PlansThe tree-planting project has opened doors for Graham’s team. The solar farm manager has invited them to bid on mowing 440 acres across multiple solar farms, and other solar companies in the region have expressed interest in working with them.Graham plans to develop a proposal for Permaculture Canada to design and implement agricultural systems in the buffer zones, potentially including community gardens with public access and educational components.Azure suggested creating an information centre at the solar farm where visitors could learn about how the panels work and what they produce, helping address misinformation about solar energy in the community.The full podcast includes additional discussion about rural depopulation, distributed vs. centralized energy systems, and the team’s upcoming travels to Central America. Get full access to Cormac Harkin at cormacharkin.substack.com/subscribe
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    1 h et 4 min
  • 110. Harvest Reflections & Winter Designs

    110. Harvest Reflections & Winter Designs
    Oct 3 2025
    Join The Permaculture Vine free Skool community for connection and learning: https://www.skool.com/vine-permaculture-7207/aboutIn Episode 110 of the Permaculture Vine podcast Cormac, Lindsay and Graham chat about their harvest yields and upcoming design work while addressing a growing concern about artificial intelligence in their field.Physical Labour and Tree RestorationGraham’s autumn has cantered on an intensive tree replanting project at a solar farm adjacent to his Michigan property. The job involves correcting improper installation work—1,122 trees were planted with metal cages and burlap left intact around root balls, causing widespread tree death. His team has been working 13-14 hour days removing dead trees, digging new holes, and properly installing replacements. By the recording date, 350 trees were planted and tagged, with Graham noting the physical challenge of keeping pace with Azure, Lindsay’s 36-year-old partner who’s been operating the heavy machinery.The project illustrates a common problem in large-scale installations: contractors unfamiliar with proper tree planting techniques can create more problems than they solve. The burlap and wire cages, meant to be temporary supports, prevented root expansion and essentially strangled the trees.Harvest OutcomesGraham reported exceptional yields this year, attributing much of the success to having additional help on the property. His harvest included first-time production from aronia berries, honey berries, and golden raspberries—all bearing fruit in their first year in the ground. His asparagus bed, planted with 1,000 crowns, exceeded expectations by producing thumb-thick spears in its second year rather than the pencil-thin stalks typically expected. The plants even produced an unusual fall flush following late-season rain and fertilization.Other significant harvests included several hundred pounds of garlic, a couple hundred pounds of potatoes, 40-50 butternut squash, and abundant fruit from seven-year-old cherry trees. Graham’s experiment with Cabernet Sauvignon wine grapes succeeded despite conventional wisdom that Michigan’s climate wouldn’t provide sufficient heat for proper flavour development.Lindsay’s harvest was constrained by an impending move—her parents are selling their property in spring, so she and Azure excavated her entire food forest and potted the plants. She processed beets into kraut and preserved garlic in vodka for tincture. With her daughter moving out and plans to spend extended time in Central America, she’s not planting for next season.Cormac in Ireland reported a “mast year”—a term for exceptional nut production—with abundant chestnuts and apples, though his pear harvest came late.The Winter Design WindowWinter represents prime design season for northern permaculture practitioners. Graham explained that from mid-November through mid-April, outdoor work essentially stops in Michigan as the ground freezes two to three feet deep. This period allows designers to focus on client projects, planning, and indoor work.Current design prospects include two campus health clinics seeking to produce food for their communities, potential projects in the US Virgin Islands and Bahamas, and continued work on intentional community development. Lindsay is developing business structures that bridge traditional corporate models with private membership associations, researching share structures and sociocracy for community projects.She’s also exploring new technology for design presentation, particularly VR and 3D modelling using LIDAR mapping. The goal is to show clients not just what a design looks like initially, but how it will develop over time—a challenge Graham identified as one of the hardest aspects of design communication.The AI ProblemThe conversation took a pointed turn when discussing artificial intelligence in permaculture. Cormac raised concerns about AI-generated content appearing in permaculture circles, citing examples of guilds showing apples and strawberries fruiting simultaneously—an impossibility since strawberries fruit in early season and apples late. He also encountered Facebook groups using AI bots to stimulate conversations, essentially training AI systems on human responses without participants’ knowledge.Graham was direct: “I’m sorry, I don’t want to teach a robot how to do my job anymore. I want to keep what I enjoy for myself and my friends in permaculture.”Lindsay added that AI imagery in project presentations immediately raises red flags for her—it signals conceptual work that may never materialize rather than grounded, practical plans. She’s positioning her upcoming permaculture design certification course as explicitly “written by a human” to distinguish it from AI-generated content.The group agreed that AI has limited appropriate uses—Graham finds it helpful for meeting notes and action item lists—but its application to design work removes ...
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    58 min
  • 109. From Medical Doctors to Permaculture Practitioners: The Thistle Thorne Story

    109. From Medical Doctors to Permaculture Practitioners: The Thistle Thorne Story
    Oct 2 2025
    The Unexpected Path to PermacultureNot every permaculture journey starts in a garden. For Marina and Alexander, founders of Thistle Thorne Permaculture, it began in the sterile halls of medicine—with a growing sense that something was missing.As Marina recalls, “After we were already medical doctors, we were unsatisfied with our career. And we wanted something that we could really dedicate our lives to that was meaningful.”Alexander’s search for meaning led him down an unexpected path. “I was searching about health and the systematic or universal aspects of health. And I came across about these discussions and research about soil health and human health.”This curiosity introduced him to Masanobu Fukuoka, the Japanese farmer and philosopher whose revolutionary “One Straw Revolution” challenged everything he thought he knew about agriculture.“I read his books and I was amazed. And I was wondering, like, that’s amazing. How can we go? How can I do it?”Fukuoka’s work opened the door, but it was Bill Mollison’s comprehensive permaculture texts that provided the roadmap. “When I researched further, I found Bill Mollison’s book. Because Bill Mollison, especially in introduction in Permaculture 2 and 1, he talks a lot about Fukuoka,” Alexander explains.Soon they were watching recordings from 2002: “There is an old PDC course recorded by Bill Mollison and Geoff Lawton. Yeah, with a young Geoff Lawton. And we did this course first.”The couple made a decision that would change everything: they would leave medicine behind and become permaculturists.Education and RealityMarina and Alexander enrolled in Geoff Lawton’s year-long online PDC course. While they found it valuable, they quickly realized something crucial about the limitations of theoretical learning.“We did the online PDC one year course. It was very, very good. Like we learned a lot,” Marina shares. “Maybe we had another expectation. We thought it would be more practical, but it’s very theoretical and very based on the book.”She continues, “We really think that you can only understand the important points when you really need theory in daily life. So we really had clear to us that we should start something so that we could really learn.”This realization led them to Austria for a three-month internship at what they believed would be a permaculture farm. The experience proved eye-opening—but not in the way they expected.“Actually when we came there, it was really organic, but it was not permaculture anymore,” Marina explains. “The owners, they did a permaculture course a long time ago and they didn’t implement actually many, many permaculture principles.”Fresh from their PDC training, Marina and Alexander could see countless opportunities. “As the course, the PDC was so fresh in our heads, we could see so many opportunities to implement permaculture systems.”Marina reflects on the experience: “They had so much work that in our vision was unnecessary and they could really implement systems that would work for itself like flywheels.”The experience taught them a valuable lesson about resistance to change in traditional farming communities. As Alexander observed, “We learned that people from the countryside, they are very rooted in old ways. So many times they have difficulty to break free from these old patterns.”Rather than seeing this as a setback, the couple recognized an opportunity. “Then we decided, OK, maybe we need to do our own stuff. Like we don’t have to wait for someone to do it so that we can learn. We can just start by ourselves,” Marina concludes.The Backyard RevolutionAfter their internship, Marina and Alexander faced a practical question. “That takes us to a very important question, like how do you afford life while you change careers and plans,” Alexander notes. “Of course, we had like savings from our previous life and we had a plan, like if we needed to, we would search for a part-time job.”More importantly, they had to decide their focus. “We were thinking about how do we want to go about permaculture,” Alexander recalls, listing various possibilities from conservation to large-scale farming.“But we decided to go about the backyard,” he states simply.Why backyards? “We based on Bill Mollison and Geoff Lotto as well, they say basically that backyards are a golden opportunity. Like they start with small trials and expand.”The couple had learned about research supporting this approach. As Alexander explains, “There is this research about how productive a site is. And they found out that between, I think, 100 meters and 5,000... they say that’s the most productive size of a farm because you can have the input, the human input, to create the interaction, interactions between the elements, to multiply the yield.”Marina adds context about their philosophy: “Like we see the garden as an ecology that sustains itself and it’s like a ...
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    42 min
  • 108. Grant Payne: Balancing Permaculture and Production at Christine Acre Farms

    108. Grant Payne: Balancing Permaculture and Production at Christine Acre Farms
    Sep 23 2025

    In this episode of the Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin sits down with Grant Payne, the innovative mind behind Christine Acre Farms. Grant shares his inspiring journey from a high school graduate to a passionate farmer embracing permaculture principles. Discover how he creatively utilizes IBC containers for sustainable farming, balances commercial and personal agricultural goals, and navigates the challenges of starting a farm from scratch. Tune in for a deep dive into the world of permaculture, resilience, and the future of sustainable farming.



    Get full access to Cormac Harkin at cormacharkin.substack.com/subscribe
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    48 min