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The Message-Market Fit Podcast

The Message-Market Fit Podcast

De : Chris Silvestri
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 Your team knows your product inside and out. But when prospects land on your site or read your pitch, they don't get it. That gap between what you know and what customers understand is costing you conversions. The Message-Market Fit Podcast helps B2B SaaS leaders close that gap. Hosted by Chris Silvestri, founder and conversion copywriter at Conversion Alchemy, each episode delivers actionable insights on creating messaging that actually resonates and converts—no jargon, no fluff. Through two distinct formats, Chris unpacks real-world messaging wins and specialized tactics. Messaging Breakdowns (20-30 min) dissect specific copy or website messaging that worked—walking through the process, decisions, and results to extract practical lessons. Shop Talk Sessions (30-40 min) go deep on specialized topics in messaging strategy, customer psychology, and conversion tactics with concrete takeaways. If you're a marketing leader, founder, or growth specialist at a B2B SaaS company, you'll get frameworks and insights to understand your customers better and communicate your value more clearly. Hit subscribe and bridge the gap between what you build and what buyers understand.2024 The Message-Market Fit Podcast Direction Economie Management et direction Marketing et ventes
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    Épisodes
    • #045 - Kaushal Subedi & Ashish Ghimire - From Vague to Focused: How Echowin Found ICP Clarity Through Rapid Positioning Iteration

      #045 - Kaushal Subedi & Ashish Ghimire - From Vague to Focused: How Echowin Found ICP Clarity Through Rapid Positioning Iteration
      Jan 14 2026
      The foundation of this episode rests on a critical challenge that most early-stage B2B SaaS companies face but few talk about honestly: how do you find positioning clarity when your market is being invented in real time? Echowin launched in November 2022, before ChatGPT was public. At that point, voice AI was still using keyword-based natural language processing—the "press one for billing, press two for sales" systems we all hate. Kaushal had early access to GPT-3 and built a voice assistant on his Apple Watch. The lightbulb moment came when he watched his mom, a small business owner, drop everything to answer a phone call while serving a client.Kaushal describes the moment: "She was with her client randomly gets a phone call, she has to drop everything she's doing, run to the phone, and she was speaking in a hurry with a person on the other side of the phone call. There was a lot of tension building up. I could see the client that was waiting, like they were clearly like, 'What's going on?' My mom was speaking in a rush. I'm pretty sure the person on the other side of the phone call felt that too. That's when it all kind of clicked."Within seven days, Kaushal quit his job at Amazon Robotics. Ashish quit his aerospace job. Within 15 days they had a working prototype. Within three months, paying customers. But having a product and having positioning clarity are two very different things. And that's where the real journey begins.Early positioning was broad—too broad. Kaushal admits: "Our positioning was something that we were still figuring out. It was very wide and very vague." They started as a "full horizontal platform" targeting all small businesses. The messaging emphasized value props like "no missed calls" and "natural language understanding," but the ICP was unclear. There are 35 million small businesses in the US alone. Who exactly were they for? The answer: they didn't know yet. They were gathering signal, running experiments, and watching what stuck.The expensive lesson: when messaging attracts the wrong crowd. One of the first major pivots came when they tested the message: "Build your AI agent in less than 5 minutes." The goal was to emphasize speed and ease. The result? It attracted the wrong crowd. Ashish describes it: "That messaging drew the wrong crowd and got us in a lot of trouble because the mass market started coming in with wrong expectations. They didn't understand the limitations of technology and we were unable to explain that clearly. And people would come in, pay for the platform and they would churn. It was an expensive lesson."The mismatch between promise and reality created friction, frustration, and churn. So they adjusted. The next iteration was: "Build your AI agent." Not in 5 minutes. Just build. This subtle shift changed everything. Ashish explains: "We started saying 'Build your AI agent.' We started attracting the builder persona, these early adopters, slightly semi tech-savvy people who wanna tinker and build things out. That's how the platform evolved from such and such platform to a builder platform where we were naturally attracting builders."The breakthrough came from cohort analysis. Kaushal and Ashish went back through their customer data and asked: who's been here for a year? Who built something on their own? Who's generating high call volumes? The pattern was clear. Ashish describes the insight: "We went back, we did extensive cohort analysis of who was getting benefit out of the platform. We looked at our existing customers, the customers who got excited, who built it on their own. In some scenarios, we even offered help and they're like, 'Nah, I got this.' We are seeing success again and again and again with this persona."That insight allowed them to refine their messaging, narrow their ICP, and speak directly to solution-aware buyers. The current Echowin homepage reflects this clarity. Kaushal explains: "Now that we have a much clearer idea of who we're targeting and who the messaging is for, we can already assume some things about them. They know what agents are, they know what these things do. When these builders come to our platform, they're not looking for the high level of what these agents can do. Instead they're looking for, why should I pick this platform over all the other ones out there?"This is a critical distinction. Early on, Echowin had to educate prospects on the category—what voice AI could do, why it mattered, how it was different from old IVR systems. Now, they're speaking to people who already understand the space and are evaluating platforms. That shift from problem-aware to solution-aware messaging is one of the most important transitions a B2B SaaS company can make. And it only happens when you know your ICP deeply.Training humans to talk to AI. One of the most interesting insights from this conversation comes from Ashish, who describes a cultural challenge they're facing: "One of the interesting things that we've seen is we ...
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      1 h et 22 min
    • #044 - Phill Agnew - Loss Aversion, Effort & Specificity: The Psychology That Actually Drives Conversions

      #044 - Phill Agnew - Loss Aversion, Effort & Specificity: The Psychology That Actually Drives Conversions
      Dec 2 2025

      Throughout our conversation, Phill breaks down the heuristics that marketers consistently underestimate or misuse: loss aversion, social proof, the effort heuristic, and specificity. He explains why showing effort matters more than ever in the age of AI, how to use social proof beyond grayscale logos, and why the most powerful marketing messages are the ones that match the exact language your customers already use.

      One of Phill's biggest insights: losses feel twice as painful as equivalent gains. Research shows that when insulation companies told homeowners "you're losing 75 cents every day" instead of "you could save 75 cents a day," conversions doubled. Amazon uses this when you try to cancel Prime—they don't list benefits, they tell you exactly what you'll lose in savings.

      Phill also shares how Buffer replaced generic logo carousels with specific customer outcomes like "I grew my LinkedIn following by 200%" and saw significant conversion improvements. He breaks down Cialdini's research showing that telling hotel guests "people in this specific room reuse their towels" was more effective than "most people in this hotel reuse their towels"—even though fewer people had stayed in that room. Specificity creates believability.

      CONNECT WITH PHILL
      • Phill Agnew on LinkedIn (Phill with two Ls!)
      • Nudge Podcast Website
      • Nudge Podcast on YouTube
      • The Nudge Vaults (Waitlist)
      SHOW NOTES
      • 00:00 The Risks of Using AI in Marketing
      • 00:39 Introduction to the Message Market Fit Podcast
      • 01:34 Meet Phil Agnew: Host of Nudge Podcast
      • 02:29 The Psychology of Effort and Costly Signaling
      • 08:29 Phil's Journey in Product Marketing
      • 11:32 The Birth of the Nudge Podcast
      • 16:24 The Art of Storytelling in Podcasts
      • 24:57 Understanding Human Decision Making
      • 28:38 The Power of Social Proof
      • 29:24 Understanding Loss Aversion
      • 31:07 The Importance of Audience Understanding
      • 33:37 Effective Use of Social Proof
      • 42:52 The Priming Effect Experiment
      • 50:59 AI and Perceived Effort
      • 56:22 Practical Application of Heuristics
      • 59:56 Conclusion and Resources

      Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

      Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy
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      1 h et 1 min
    • #043 - Kyle Scott - Voice, Tone & World-Building: How to Write Email Copy That Sells Out Events

      #043 - Kyle Scott - Voice, Tone & World-Building: How to Write Email Copy That Sells Out Events
      Nov 5 2025
      The foundation of this episode rests on a critical distinction that most marketers blur together: **voice versus tone**. Kyle explains that voice is your written personality—it stays consistent across all channels and contexts. Tone, by contrast, is how you inflect that personality based on the situation. Think James Bond: he's always Bond, but his tone shifts when he's with a love interest versus facing a villain. For B2B teams, this means your brand voice should be recognizable everywhere—email, website, social, support—but the tone can adapt to urgency, celebration, education, or crisis. The practical implication? Don't let different team members rewrite your voice. Align on the character first, then let tone flex.Kyle didn't learn to write in Ryan Serhant's voice through copywriting school or brand guidelines. He learned through **listening**—watching Million Dollar Listing, reading his book, listening to his podcast, working alongside him. He absorbed cadence, word choice, energy, and personality through immersion. His advice: if you're writing for a person or personal brand, listen to them speak. If you're writing for a business, find real-world personalities who embody your brand's values and listen to how they talk. Then internalize it. This is more effective than any document because it's about osmosis, not rules. The email breakdown reveals why: Kyle didn't follow a template. He wrote like he was having a conversation with someone he knew.The email itself is a masterclass in **specificity**. Instead of "high up above the skyscrapers," Kyle wrote "1,416 feet in the air." Instead of "luxury listing," he said "$250 million triplex" at "Central Park Tower," the "most expensive listing ever in the United States." Each specific detail makes the reader *feel* the exclusivity. It's not marketing fluff—it's world-building. The specificity creates a mental image that makes the offer feel real and tangible. For B2B: replace "enterprise-grade" with "handles 10M+ transactions per day." Replace "easy to use" with "onboards in under 5 minutes." Specificity is credibility.But Kyle thinks five steps ahead. The email isn't just selling tickets—it's constructing a world of exclusivity around the event. Every element reinforces that world: "Early Access" in the subject line signals insider status. "Since you're on the mastermind wait list" reminds people they're part of a curated group. The Wall Street Journal link (with its paywall) signals prestige—hitting the paywall *reinforces* that this is exclusive. "All showing agents are vetted" means you can't just show up; you have to be approved. "Once it's sold, it'll be forever closed" creates scarcity and finality. This isn't manipulation. It's intentional storytelling. And it matters because the story you tell internally (we sold out in one email) becomes the story you tell externally (everyone wants in now).Kyle also reveals a tactical choice that most marketers miss: he sent the email through HubSpot but made it *look* like a personal email from Outlook. No fancy header. No marketing template. Just "Hi there" and conversational language. Why? Because personal emails get higher open rates, higher engagement, and feel more authentic. When you're selling a $7,000 ticket, you can afford to spend 3–4 hours replying to people personally. That human touch is worth it. The trade-off: you can't use a signup page. You have to be willing to handle the volume of replies. But for high-ticket offers, this is a no-brainer.The bigger picture Kyle emphasizes is this: **in an age where AI can replicate your software in seconds, brand and community are your only defensible advantages**. And brand is built on point of view. Not politics or religion—but a clear stance on where your industry is going and what your customers need to succeed. Perplexity has a POV on AI research. Claude has a POV on safety and privacy. Open AI is more generalist—which is why specialists are carving out niches. For B2B SaaS: if you're not prescriptive about what your customers should do, you're invisible. Tell them what to do. Make it the easy path. Customers are lazy—they want an expert to guide them, not a generic platform.Whether you're a B2B SaaS marketer building brand voice, a copywriter learning the mechanics of persuasive writing, a founder building a personal brand, or a product marketer learning how to position and communicate value, this episode offers practical frameworks for building messaging that cuts through noise and creates desire. Kyle's breakdown of how he constructed exclusivity through language and storytelling is worth a listen—and worth applying to your own work.Enjoy!CONNECT WITH KYLEKyle Scott on LinkedInKyle Scott's NewsletterInstagram: @kylescotsoriginalLuxury PresenceSHOW NOTES00:00 The Power of Brand and Community01:05 Welcome to the Message Market Fit Podcast02:12 Introducing Today's Guest: Kyle Scott02:53 Dissecting a High-Performing Email07:56 The...
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      40 min
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