In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I continue the conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom, moving deeper into the origins and intent behind the In2:In Thinking Network and what it truly means to “think about our thinking.”

Bill shares the lesser-known backstory of how In2:In Thinking came to be, from its early roots as the West Coast Quality Forum to the deliberate choice to move beyond Deming’s name alone. He explains why creating new language matters when changing systems, and how words like “quality,” “thinking,” and even “together” can trap us in old meanings unless we consciously redefine them.

The discussion turns to incentives, commissions, and performance management, one of the most difficult and controversial areas of applying Deming’s philosophy. Through real-world examples from sales organizations, manufacturing, and leadership roles, we explore how individual incentives often drive behavior that harms the system as a whole, even when intentions are good. Bill and I unpack why these problems aren’t about “bad people,” but about systems that reward the wrong outcomes.

Lori introduces curiosity as a unifying theme, curiosity not just about external problems, but about our own assumptions, beliefs, and patterns of thinking. We connect curiosity to empathy, beginner’s mind, and the ability to see work as “part of” a larger system rather than isolated tasks. From parenting to leadership to organizational design, the conversation highlights how asking better questions can unlock better action.

The episode closes by reinforcing a critical point: In2:In Thinking is not about endless reflection. Thinking about thinking must ultimately lead to better decisions, better cooperation, and better results. This balance between mindfulness and action, reflection, and delivery is at the heart of Deming’s work and the mission of the In2:In Thinking Network.

To kick start season 6 of the Profound Podcast, I have a conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows and Lori Strom. Together, we explore how W. Edwards Deming’s philosophy continues to challenge prevailing styles of management, and why curiosity, systems thinking, and better questions matter more than ever in today’s digital and organizational landscape.

Lori shares her personal journey from Georgia Tech to the Deming Scholars MBA program at Fordham, describing the “light-bulb moment” that came from discovering Deming’s work. She reflects on learning in an environment without grades, without competition, and with a deep emphasis on cooperation, intrinsic motivation, and real-world application. Her story illustrates how Deming’s ideas resonate with people who sense that “something is off” in traditional management but lack the language to name it.

Dr. Bellows expands the discussion by reflecting on Deming’s later years, his frustration at being misunderstood, and his push to move beyond prescriptions like the 14 Points toward deeper thinking about our thinking. He recounts the origins of the In2:In Thinking Network, the importance of making Deming’s ideas accessible, and why changing words and the meaning behind them matters when changing systems.

Across the episode, we connect Deming’s System of Profound Knowledge to modern challenges in education, large enterprises, and digital transformation. From AI and critical thinking to burnout inside massive organizations, this conversation highlights why real change doesn’t come from tools or methods alone, but from learning to see systems differently, ask better questions, and create environments where people can truly learn.

Show Notes:

http://www.in2in.org/

https://www.in2in.org/contact

I have a conversation with Diane Kulisek in this episode. Diane, a veteran in quality systems and regulatory affairs, shares her journey from Gillette to Rocketdyne to Johnson & Johnson, weaving in the principles of Deming and the realities of complex, high-stakes industries. We dive into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality and how they’ve shaped Diane’s extraordinary career across aerospace, consumer products, and medical device manufacturing.

We start with Diane’s early work at Gillette, where she first encountered military-grade quality standards, and move into her groundbreaking experience at Rocketdyne. There, she managed space shuttle main engine avionics and led self-managed teams. Diane highlights the power of elected management and the deep cultural dysfunctions she observed, drawing sharp analogies to adult children of alcoholics and the normalization of deviance in corporate environments.

Our conversation then pivots to regulatory complexity. Diane explains how compliance efforts in medical device manufacturing must transcend minimum standards to uphold the priceless value of human life. She critiques the profit-centric motives of insurance companies and exposes the structural misalignments that can compromise quality in favor of greed and speed.

We also explore the limitations and potential of AI in auditing, with Diane emphasizing the importance of human experience in identifying risk and systemic failures. She proposes the provocative idea of creating an “AI Deming,” using Deming’s extensive body of work to model principled decision-making.

Diane’s reflections bring a critical eye to regulatory frameworks, the ethics of risk management, and the potential of technology to augment human insight. Through it all, she remains grounded in Deming’s enduring vision that quality is a moral imperative and a societal good.

This is Diane's LinkedIn Page:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dkulisek

Show Notes:

1: https://www.scribd.com/document/451480272/MIL-Q-9858A-Quality-Program-Requirements-pdf

2: https://adultchildren.org

3: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/16.305

4: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB991862606575154843

5: https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/708066main_Shuttle_Bibliography_2-ebook.pdf?emrc=c67e14

6: https://www.irvinestandard.com/2023/johnson-johnsons-innovation-irvine-roots-and-credo-to-give-back/

7: https://asq.org/-/media/ASQ-Supplemental-Media-Import/1/3/9/2/6/ar_1106_105018.pdf

8: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/oalj/PUBLIC/WHISTLEBLOWER/REFERENCES/STATUTES/SARBANES_OXLEY_ACT_OF_2002.PDF

9: https://store.pda.org/TableOfContents/Risk_Assessment_Ch01.pdf

10: https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/class-action-lawsuit-against-unitedhealths-ai-claim-denials-advances

11:

In this episode, I have a conversation with Doug Finke. A 16-time Microsoft MVP and long-time technologist, Doug’s experience ranges from mainframe assembly programming to pioneering AI integrations in software development. We reminisce about the early days of system programming and explore how those foundational skills have enabled technologists like Doug to excel in the rapidly evolving world of AI.

Doug shares his journey from COBOL and assembler to becoming a PowerShell innovator, highlighting how his early exposure to structured programming and domain-specific languages now serves as a superpower in working with large language models (LLMs). Our discussion pivots to the game-changing potential of AI, specifically the rise of function calling, modular design, and the Model-Context-Protocol (MCP). Doug explains how these patterns transform AI from simple copilots into powerful collaborators capable of orchestrating entire software systems.

We also look at the implications of AI-driven software development for enterprises, examining whether vertical SaaS solutions may soon be disrupted by in-house, AI-built alternatives. Doug emphasizes how AI accelerates both code creation and maintenance, challenging long-held assumptions about whether to buy or build software.

Our conversation concludes with a philosophical lens on teaching AI, the evolving role of junior developers, and the importance of naming, structure, and design patterns in crafting software that AI can effectively understand and extend. Whether you're deep into AI tooling or just starting to explore, Doug's perspective offers a clear bridge between classical computing and today's transformative technologies.

I have a fantastic conversation with Lonnie Wilson in this episode, diving deep into W. Edwards Deming’s seminal perspectives on quality, systems thinking, and the enduring challenges of operationalizing his philosophy in the real world. Lonnie also shares how his initial admiration for Chevron's management practices began to unravel after encountering Deming's writings in the mid-1980s.

The episode opens with Lonnie recounting his experience attending one of Deming's four-day seminars. His anecdote about Deming’s instantaneous answer to a deceptively simple question. Lonnie reflects on Deming's often enigmatic style, particularly his refusal to provide concrete answers to complex management questions, such as what to replace performance appraisals with.

We explore the tension between Deming’s abstract guidance and the practical application of his ideas in corporate environments. Lonnie shares his journey of attempting to implement cultural change through Deming’s 14 Points, only to face organizational resistance and surface-level interest. This led him to develop pragmatic systems that bridged the gap between Deming's theory and the day-to-day realities of business operations.

Lonnie and I delve into critical questions: Was Deming’s refusal to provide prescriptive answers a form of intellectual elitism or a deliberate nudge toward self-discovery? How did his lack of direct management experience influence his worldview? Lonnie argues that while Deming's concepts were revolutionary, they were often delivered without a “method for method,” leaving followers to forge their paths.

The conversation concludes on a reflective note, with both of us acknowledging that, despite the depth and accuracy of Deming’s ideas, much of the corporate world has either misunderstood or ignored them. If Deming were alive today, Lonnie believes he would be dismayed by the lack of progress in management thinking and would challenge his disciples to evolve and iterate on his foundational work.

I'm still trying to figure out how to produce the audiobook for Rebels of Reason. This is my first experiment with 11Labs. It's not great. I will have to work on the voice equipment; however, it's a start. I hope you enjoy it.

I have a deeply insightful conversation with Dr. Bill Bellows in this episode of the Profound Podcast. We dive into the heart of what it means to think about thinking—a concept that lies at the core of the In2:InThinking Network, a community Dr. Bellows co-founded to carry forward the transformational work of W. Edwards Deming and other systems pioneers.

At the center of our discussion is the 2025 In2:InThinking Forum, happening this June 20–22 in Santa Clarita, California, and also available virtually for free via live stream. It's a gathering of minds, where humility, curiosity, and collaboration take center stage. If you're in DevOps, digital transformation, or operations—and especially if you're exploring how Deming's ideas apply in modern contexts—this is the event for you.

Dr. Bellows takes us on a journey through the origins and evolution of the In2:InThinking Network, which emerged in the early 2000s as a response to the declining presence of Deming-centered conferences. Recognizing the need for a West Coast community of deep thinkers and doers, Dr. Bellows and his colleagues created a space where engineers, IT professionals, healthcare leaders, and educators could unite in their pursuit of better systems thinking and action.

We explore how systems thinking applies far beyond manufacturing, touching software delivery, digital infrastructure, education, and even AI. Dr. Bellows shares why this kind of egoless, psychologically safe environment is essential for innovation, allowing both newcomers and veterans to engage deeply without pretension.

We also touch on the Red Bead Experiment, Deming’s ideas on variation, and the costs of overlooking systemic thinking in today’s organizations. Dr. Bellows reminds us that better systems start with better conversations—and that starts with communities like In2:InThinking.

You can sign up for the event on In2:InThinking Network’s website: https://www.in2in.org

In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Jim Highsmith. We dive into Jim’s six-decade career in software development, his role in the Agile movement, and how his early influences continue to shape his thinking on digital transformation today. Jim shares stories from the punch card era to the Agile Manifesto, offering insight into the evolution of our industry.

We begin by exploring Jim's early work at Exxon, debugging code with hexadecimal printouts, and his eventual pivot into structured methods and adaptive development showing a career built on embracing risk, fostering change, and learning through experience.

Jim recounts the serendipitous path that led him to the Agile Manifesto in 2001, where he collaborated with figures like Kent Beck and Martin Fowler. He shares how his early thinking around adaptive methodologies aligned with what became known as Agile, even before the term existed. Throughout, Jim highlights how technological shifts, especially the rise of the internet, fundamentally altered software's purpose requiring new development paradigms.

In reflecting on Agile’s legacy, Jim contrasts optimization (à la Deming’s statistical process control) with adaptation (rooted in people, learning, and responsiveness). He emphasizes the importance of context in applying any methodology, whether Agile, Lean, or DevOps, and cautions against rigid orthodoxy in favor of flexible thinking. The conversation also touches on Deming’s influence, the missed opportunity for Agile and DevOps convergence, and Jim’s role in fostering integration between the Agile Alliance and the Project Management Institute (PMI).

Looking to the future, Jim sees AI as a transformation on the scale of the internet, requiring organizations to adopt adaptive mindsets or risk irrelevance. He warns that those who fail at Agile will likely fail at AI if they don’t build adaptive learning into their culture. He advocates for reimagining agility not as a fixed set of practices, but as a living, philosophical approach responsive to continual change.