You can find all of Saleh Callander's books : HERE

In this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee sits down with Saleh Vallander—Sweden-based doctor, meditation teacher, and Enneagram author—for a rich, spacious conversation on Enneagram Type Five from the inside out.

Saleh shares how he discovered the Enneagram on a meditation retreat in 2017, why a spiritual frame matters to him, and how storytelling, metaphor, and nonverbal language can sometimes reveal a type more accurately than intellectual description. Kristin and Saleh explore the Five’s relationship to “knowing”—not as trivia-collecting, but as a visceral hunger to uncover what’s underneath things—and the challenge of trying to isolate “type” from other parts of personality (including cognitive styles and tritype dynamics).

From there, the conversation moves into the heart of Saleh's work and his book The Nine Barriers to the Heart: the way each type loses contact with essential qualities, chases a partial truth, and eventually discovers that the deepest change isn’t self-improvement—it’s acceptance. Together they name what Fives often avoid (emptiness), how that emptiness can feel like an existential threat, and why non-attachment isn’t an idealized spiritual pose but the byproduct of learning to be with what you’ve been running from.

Along the way, you’ll hear striking distinctions—Five “isolation” versus Four “estrangement,” how withdrawal can look polite on the outside while fear hides underneath, and why the quest for happiness can become its own mirage when it’s driven by the “miserable self.” If you’re a Five, love a Five, or want a more honest conversation about spiritual work that doesn’t bypass suffering, this one lands deep.

Connect with Monique Here : Monique@empathyarchitects.com

In this far-reaching Type Four conversation, Kristin Messegee sits down with Enneagram coach Monique Lacoste to explore the inner landscape of one of the most mythologized and misunderstood Enneagram types.

Together they trace what it means to carry intensity, to read truth on every level, and to live with the emotional realness of the emotionally responsive types.

Monique opens the door to the lived experience of Fours: the search for authenticity, the pull toward beauty, the cultivation of mood, and the complicated dance between internal image and external mirroring. She speaks candidly about anger, passion, shame, envy, and the surprising ways these show up in real relationships, conflict, creativity, and self-understanding.

They look at Tri-Fixes, instinct theory, attachment patterns, emotional truth-telling—and remaining grounded in story, vulnerability, and real-time discovery.

Kristin interviews Kelly Langley Cook: Enneagram Three, career educator, and the person who quietly shapes most future social studies teachers in Greeley, Colorado.

Kelly spent two decades teaching high school before moving into higher ed, where she now focuses on LGBTQ+ U.S. history and teacher training at UNC.

She also happens to share a life (and last name) with Jeff Cook, which means she’s lived inside Enneagram culture for a long time—while still claiming her lane as the “normal person in a world full of experts.”