• Identify your four types of people: Categorize your congregation into sleepers (spiritually asleep), seekers (genuinely open), consumers (service-focused), and disciples (committed followers)—and focus your energy strategically on each group rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

• Simplify to transform: Stop adding more programs. Instead, focus on creating a discipleship culture through spiritual disciplines like reflection, gratitude, and confession that actually change hearts and behavior, not just knowledge.

• Lead from your own renewal: Pastors experiencing burnout should prioritize their own spiritual formation and daily gratitude first—this "rewires" your soul and naturally makes your church healthier and more missional.

• Build a scalable discipleship pathway: Multi-campus churches can maintain their DNA while reaching diverse communities by being intentional about discipleship at every level, from sleepers to mature disciples.

Pastor Daniel Im sits down with Bart Blair to discuss one of the most critical challenges facing church leaders today: how to disciple people in a way that actually transforms their lives and faith practices, not just fills their heads with Bible knowledge.

In this conversation, Daniel shares lessons from leading a 104-year-old multi-ethnic, multi-campus church in post-Christian Canada, and discusses his latest book, The Discipleship Opportunity: Leading a Great-Commission Church in a Post-Everything World. If you're a pastor feeling burned out, questioning your approach, or wondering how to reach and disciple people differently in today's culture, this episode is for you.

Daniel challenges the church growth mentality that prioritizes attendance and buildings over genuine discipleship. He explains why many churches create "Christian consumers" instead of committed disciples, and what a healthier framework looks like.

Daniel introduces the "quadrant" of people every church has: sleepers (spiritually asleep members), seekers (genuinely open to faith), consumers (who view church as a service to attend), and disciples (committed followers). Understanding these categories changes everything about your approach.

Rather than chasing larger numbers, Daniel shares a surprising insight: when pastors focus on daily gratitude, spiritual disciplines, and their own transformation, the church naturally becomes healthier and more missional.

From his experience at Beulah Alliance Church (now multi-campus with 12,000+ attendees), Daniel shares how to build a discipleship culture that scales without losing its DNA.

Daniel shares fascinating insights about how our brains actually change when we practice spiritual disciplines like reflection, meditation, and confession—and why this matters for church leaders trying to help people grow.

"My heart and my desire for you is that just like I pray every week, God, would you wake up the sleepers, the seekers, the consumers, and the disciples."

"It's so easy to just...