In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat Gomendio, former Deputy Director for Education at the OECD, to discuss the newly released PISA 2025 results.

They explore why student achievement is falling in many countries. They discuss whether COVID, smartphones, and AI explain the declines, why some education systems are holding up better than others, and what policymakers can learn from countries that are seeing better results. They also answer questions from listeners that were submitted during a livestream version of the episode.

Chalk & Talk website: www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com

This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] - Introduction: PISA 2025 and student achievement [00:05:41] - Why did reading become the dominant PISA story? [00:08:23] - Do phones, digital technology, and AI explain the decline? [00:14:54] - Did COVID and school closures cause the decline? [00:20:58] - What can England teach us about education policy after COVID? [00:22:14] – Scores started declining before COVID [00:27:35] - What do top-performing education systems have in common?[00:34:32] - What makes effective teacher training? [00:39:59] - How can countries improve teacher quality in the short term?[00:45:24] - Why evidence-based professional development matters [00:48:10] - What can countries learn from England’s approach to math? [00:51:22] - What should teachers do when they disagree with their training?[00:56:10] – How to encourage teachers to change [00:59:14] - How should schools design a knowledge-rich curriculum? [01:03:35] - What makes an effective math curriculum? [01:06:44] - Does PISA data hide differences between education systems?[01:10:41] - What does the OECD get wrong about interpreting PISA data? [01:16:14] – Finland: PISA declines and bad advice about following Finland [01:21:54] - Final thoughts

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-81/

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES (linking to website)

The Story Behind Mississippi’s Education Turnaround with Rachel Cante https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-76/

The Finland myth, East Asia’s rise, and what makes education systems work with Montserrat Gomendio https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-68/

When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-58/

From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-49/

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: http://www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com/ FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by two elementary school teachers from California who are appearing anonymously so they can speak candidly about their experiences.

Both teach at a school where math achievement has remained consistently low.

After watching many of their students struggle with the curriculum they were expected to use (Illustrative Math), they began exploring research, learning about the science of learning and evidence-informed teaching practices, and rethinking what they had been taught about how children learn math. They changed the way they taught math and the results were remarkable. Their students began the year below the national average in math and finished well above it.

This inspiring conversation explores what happens when teachers refuse to accept poor outcomes and take the initiative to find better ways to help their students succeed.

Max and Todd are also interested in hearing your thoughts and questions.

Submit feedback and questions about this episode here: https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-80/

Sept. 29, 11:00 AM CST Livestream for Making Sense of PISA 2025: Live with Montserrat Gomendio): https://www.youtube.com/live/g_VTy4q55zo?si=9CWypiuqR1GyHIWc

Chalk & Talk website: www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] Introduction [00:04:03] Remarkable math gains in a struggling school [00:07:05] What they learned in teacher education about math instruction [00:14:49] A school facing years of poor math outcomes [00:17:54] When classroom reality didn’t match what was being taught [00:23:43] Illustrative Math and issues with problem-based instruction [00:33:50] A close look at an Illustrative Math lesson [00:43:14] Recognizing the teaching approach didn’t work [00:46:35] How they transformed their math instruction [00:54:28] What explicit instruction looks like in the classroom [00:58:52] Creating more opportunities for students to respond [01:01:54] How administrators responded to the results [01:06:11] Evidence-informed teaching has a huge impact [01:11:38] Advice for teachers [01:15:03] When a teacher’s work feels hopeless

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-80/

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Cognitive load theory and learning math with John Sweller https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-s2zyd-1a717d6

Teaching math so students learn with Craig Barton https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vr69j-1a277a2

Using the Instructional Hierarchy to teach math with Brendan Lee https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3zux7-193d0fc

Transforming education through behaviour science with Dr. Kimberly Berens https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9tfz7-16f2e02

The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d

Math & the Myth of Ability with John Mighton https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-22c7a-139dc72

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: http://www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com/ FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by returning guest Dr. Brian Poncy to discuss math fact fluency and whether improving students’ fluency with basic number operations leads to better overall math achievement.

Brian shares new results from the first year of a large implementation of the free Facts on Fire program in a Texas school district. They discuss what the data shows, how the program has evolved based on teacher feedback, and what educators are saying about it.

They also revisit five evidence-based reasons why fluency—being able to do math both accurately and effortlessly—matters. With a new school year underway, this episode offers practical and encouraging ideas for helping students build automaticity with math facts through clear instruction, practice, and feedback.

This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] Introduction [00:04:25] What’s changed with Facts on Fire? [00:08:15] Measuring fluency in problems per minute [00:14:47] How Facts on Fire builds fluency through practice and feedback [00:17:29] How much practice do students need? [00:20:11] Facts on Fire goes school-wide in Texas [00:23:22] Teachers’ experiences implementing Facts on Fire [00:24:56] Did Facts on Fire improve math achievement? [00:30:10] What the MAP data reveals [00:34:40] The impact of Facts on Fire and the results [00:42:40] Five reasons why fluency matters [00:43:01] Cognitive load and working memory [00:46:15] Increasing opportunities to respond [00:47:31] Effort, reinforcement, and building confidence [00:49:23] Maintaining skills and promoting generalization [00:52:14] Recapping the five reasons fluency matters [00:54:26] The future of Facts on Fire [00:56:19] A call to action for the new school year [00:57:58] Final thoughts

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-79-resources

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-79-transcript

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Math fact crisis: Strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773

Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e

How to Build Automaticity with Math Facts: A Practical Guide https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9

Rocking the Times Tables with Bruno Reddy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-2pbdy-18f76df

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social