In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. John Sweller, emeritus professor at the University of New South Wales and the researcher best known for developing Cognitive Load Theory. Together, they explore how cognitive load theory should guide classroom practice, particularly in mathematics.

John explains the limits of working memory, how experts and novices approach problem solving differently, and how strategies like worked examples can help manage cognitive load. They also discuss whether productive failure is supported by research and the strong experimental evidence supporting explicit instruction, particularly when students are learning new content.

This episode will be extremely valuable for educators, especially math teachers, who want to better understand how students become expert problem solvers and what that means for effective instruction.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:53] Biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge [00:09:34] Element Interactivity [00:15:37] Two characteristics of working memory [00:16:52] Understanding long-term memory [00:21:06] Does working memory capacity vary for different people? [00:21:44] Can working memory capacity be altered? [00:22:45] How can you measure working memory? [00:23:49] Explaining cognitive load theory [00:27:55] Can you measure cognitive load? [00:31:51] Sweller’s definition of problem solving [00:37:28] Understanding schemas [00:44:26] The way novices and experts categorize problems differently [00:46:11] The expertise reversal effect [00:50:13] How to identify students are ready for problem solving [00:52:12] Thoughts on productive failure [00:55:40] Why is there still debate about prioritizing inquiry-based approaches in math instruction?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56 Cognitive load theory in math class with David Morkunas https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-znh5k-15f7937

Unmasking instructional illusions with Paul Kirschner, Carl Hendrick and Jim Heal https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-kvuee-198b6ee

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-67-transcript

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by two world-renowned experts in human memory and learning, Dr. Elizabeth Bjork and Dr. Robert Bjork, to explore what makes a difficulty desirable in learning.

They explain why some learning strategies that feel effortful often leads to stronger, longer-lasting retention while strategies that feel easy, like rereading or rewatching lectures without self-testing, or cramming, can create an illusion of mastery. The conversation unpacks retrieval practice, spacing, interleaving, variation, and addresses common misconceptions about what makes a difficulty desirable, and why what looks like slow progress in the short term may actually lead to more durable learning in the long-term.

This episode will be of interest to educators at all levels and is especially important for high school and university students and their teachers who want to develop effective study habits grounded in science.

This episode is also available at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:48] Guests’ background: moving from math to psychology [00:09:04] Researching effective learning techniques [00:10:35] Who does this research apply to? [00:14:47] The introduction of ‘Desirable difficulties’ [00:18:40] Understanding desirable difficulties [00:20:13] Importance of retrieval practice [00:30:46] The spacing effect [00:33:43] Variation and the benefits for students [00:36:55] Retrieval practice is the anchor in desirable difficulties [00:43:19] Blocking and interleaving [00:51:58] Final Thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

How we learn: Naïve, purposeful, and deliberate practice with Stephen Chew

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-mrwn2-18adce0

Powerful teaching with Patrice Bain https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d77g4-14602e3

How to excel in math and other tough subjects with Barbara Oakley https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bqs8p-14068f2

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-66-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

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Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined once again by Dr. Sarah Powell, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin whose research focusses on supporting students with math difficulties. They respond to a recent NCSM statement criticizing the Science of Math movement.

Anna and Sarah unpack what the Science of Math is and why high-quality evidence matters. They address misconceptions about explicit instruction and “one-size-fits-all” teaching and explore why math instruction deserves the same scientific scrutiny as reading instruction. This episode is a must-listen for educators, school leaders, policymakers, and parents navigating the current math education landscape.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction and an overview of the NCSM statement [00:10:25] What is the Science of Math? [00:12:07] Is this only about special education? [00:14:24] Math learning through the general lens of learning science [00:17:19] Is the Science of Math equivalent to the Science of Reading? [00:20:01] The instructional hierarchy applies to learning anything [00:24:07] The same groups tried to discredit What Works Clearinghouse [00:26:30] Responding to claims about research citations [00:29:49] Addressing the NCSM’s claims about quantitative research [00:31:21] Why quantitative research and data matter [00:38:24] Why alignment with IES and What Works Clearinghouse is a strength, not a flaw [00:40:18] Importance of measuring learning [00:42:59] Strange statements about an impoverished pedagogical approach [00:47:30] Misconceptions about explicit instruction [00:51:25] Is there quantitative data that supports mixed approaches or inquiry? [00:55:20] Does explicit instruction fundamentally minimize learners' autonomy? [00:56:32] Final Claim: The one-size-fits-all teaching method [00:58:04] Problems with the phrase “math wars” [00:59:59] Why is there such strong resistance to The Science of Math? [01:02:51] Final Thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Reading and math: Parallels and pitfalls with Matt Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6

Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c

Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d

Supporting students with math difficulties with Sarah Powell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-ciqgm-17def6b

The power of explicit instruction with Anita Archer https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-93dcw-19a3530

Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks, & more with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-stw9g-186807f

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-65-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-65-resources

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social