What if the problem with government efficiency is that we're measuring the wrong thing? Civic tech experts Marina Nitze and David Eaves challenge the idea that doing more with less should be government's ultimate goal. From redesigning foster care bureaucracy to preparing public services for AI, they explore what it actually takes to make complex systems work better for the people who depend on them. Along the way, they unpack why crises can unlock transformational change, how governments can learn from one another, and why the future of government may depend less on efficiency—and more on effectiveness.

ABOUT THE GUESTS:

Marina Nitze is a partner at Layer Aleph, a crisis engineering firm, and co-author of Crisis Engineering and Hack Your Bureaucracy. A former Chief Technology Officer of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs and technology advisor in the Obama White House, she now works on complex-system transformation and improving America's child welfare system through New America's New Practice Lab.

David Eaves is Associate Professor of Digital Government and Co-Deputy Director of the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London, where he studies digital public infrastructure, state capacity, and how governments build and buy technology. Previously a lecturer at Harvard Kennedy School and CEO of civic tech company ReCollect, he has advised governments around the world on delivering public services in the digital age.

ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT FIX:

The Government Fix is a podcast by Code for America, the country’s leading civic tech nonprofit for over 15 years. Hosted by CEO Amanda Renteria, we explore what it looks like when government works well for everyone.

Explore all episodes and learn more: thegovernmentfix.org

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL65XgbSILalWGZmB8DliZnjqyxEpIgy0v&si=Ah_WzQ7INfnXqjVn

Transcript available here: https://codeforamerica.org/podcast/what-the-debate-about-government-efficiency-is-missing/

The Government Fix is a podcast from Code for America, the country’s leading civic tech nonprofit. Learn more about our work at codeforamerica.org.