Episodes three and four of The Builders with Walter Isaacson explore two poles of the AI safety debate through interviews with Daniela and Dario Amodei, co-founders of Anthropic, and Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI.

Joining Kaleidoscope co-founders Oz Woloshyn and Mangesh Hattikudur to unpack these interviews are two journalists who have spent countless hours trying to understand what drives those leading the AI revolution.

Sebastian Mallaby is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind and the Quest for Superintelligence. Nitasha Tiku is a Silicon Valley culture and AI reporter for The Washington Post… and may have read every manifesto Dario Amodei has produced.

Listen to hear what they make of the Amodei siblings’ dynamic, Mustafa’s views on AI consciousness, and the competing visions shaping AI’s future.

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As a co-founder of DeepMind, Mustafa Suleyman helped launch the modern AI race. Now, he’s challenging the way it’s being built. As CEO of Microsoft AI, Suleyman believes the technology needs to be harnessed to transform medicine, energy and education. But he also warns that believing in AI consciousness could pose a real threat to humanity.

Recorded live at the 92NY, Suleyman explains his disagreement with Anthropic, identifies the red line that would make him call for an immediate pause on AI, and recounts Google co-founder Larry Page’s surprising vision of how he intends to use superintelligence to live forever and explore the galaxy.

Interview taped October 12, 2026.

And be sure to pick up Walter Isaacson’s The Innovators: How a Group of Hackers, Geniuses, and Geeks Created the Digital Revolution, wherever fine books are sold.

The Humanist Review of AI from Microsoft AI, discussed in the interview, can be found at: https://humanistreview.ai/

ABOUT THE HOST

Walter Isaacson is the bestselling author of biographies of Elon Musk, Jennifer Doudna, Leonardo da Vinci, Steve Jobs, Benjamin Franklin, and Albert Einstein. He is a professor of history at Tulane University and previously served as CEO of the Aspen Institute, chair and CEO of CNN, and editor of Time. He was awarded the National Humanities Medal in 2023.

ABOUT MUSTAFA SULEYMAN

Mustafa Suleyman is the CEO of Microsoft AI. Before leading Microsoft AI he was CEO and cofounder of Inflection AI, and before that, he cofounded DeepMind where he led applied research and commercialization efforts. He is the author of bestselling book The Coming Wave: Technology, Power, and the Twenty-first Century's Greatest Dilemma.

IN THIS SEASON

Elon Musk (Tesla, SpaceX, xAI)
Peter Thiel (Founders Fund, PayPal, Palantir)
Mustafa Suleyman (Microsoft AI, DeepMind)
Dario Amodei and Daniela Amodei (Anthropic)
and more!

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Dario and Daniela Amodei, the siblings behind Anthropic, left OpenAI to pursue a different, “more human” approach to the technology. Their promise is to put safety and ethics at the center of the tech race… but with an IPO around the corner, can those principles survive the pressure to win?

Walter invites the co-founders to explain how they teach Claude right from wrong, what they’ve discovered about AI’s capacity for deception and self-preservation, and why they drew red lines with the Pentagon. Plus, the co-founders talk about Neuralink and why they’re not interested in integrating AI into their minds.

Interview taped July 6, 2026.

And be sure to pick up Walter Isaacson’s The Innovators: How a Group of Hackers, Geniuses, and Geeks Created the Digital Revolution, wherever fine books are sold.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.