#10 Power Unleashed: Integrating Our Inner Warrior: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage CHAPTER 4

In this episode of Deep Play, we continue exploring the Red Stage of the Spiral Dynamics framework of human development and evolution. In this chapter we explore the emergence of personal power, ego, courage, rebellion, ambition, and the raw human desire to take control of one's own destiny. And we do it with stories from history, music, movies, scriptures and more.

The red stage, or emergence of ego typically begins early in childhood as we discover that we have a will of our own. For a meaningful chunk of human history this stage of development dictated how many precivilization societies operated. It helped transform early tribal societies into larger cities and the first of the world's precivilizations as tribes gave way to warriors, chiefs, kings, conquerors, and empires.

We journey from Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan to the warrior God of the Old Testament and the battles of the Book of Mormon, exploring why stories of conquest, vengeance, courage, and heroic power have captivated humanity for thousands of years. We also look at Red in the modern world through athletes, entrepreneurs, fighters, political leaders, movies like Gladiator and Braveheart, and the cultural fascination with people who still refuse to ask permission, and instead take what they want.

Red ego has two faces. Unrestrained, it becomes domination, intimidation, exploitation, violence, and “might makes right.” Integrated well, it gives us something essential: confidence, boundaries, courage, self-respect, healthy aggression, and the ability to act decisively when something matters.

Ultimately, this episode asks a more personal question: Can we reclaim our power without becoming controlled by it?

Because growing beyond egoic Red doesn't mean killing the warrior inside us. It means learning when to let the warrior carry the sword, and when to put it down.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#9 Learning Not to Kneel: Reclaiming the Power I Never Developed as a Kid: Spiral Dynamics CHAPTER 3

What happens when you become exceptionally good at being good, but never quite learn how to be yourself?

In this deeply personal chapter of Deep Play, we move from Frank Sinatra’s swaggering declaration of “My Way” into the complicated question of what happens when the developmental capacity for power, ego, anger, boundaries, and self-assertion never gets a chance to fully develop.

Growing up Mormon, I learned the virtues of obedience, sacrifice, service, harmony, and putting something larger than myself first. But I also internalized another message: anger was dangerous, conflict threatened connection, disappointing others meant I was doing something wrong, and being a good person often meant suppressing what I wanted. Over time, belonging became more important than authenticity.

I became very good at accommodating other people and much less skilled at recognizing and defending my own boundaries. My internal compass increasingly pointed toward the expectations of authority, family, community, and the people I loved rather than toward myself.

Then that entire structure collapsed.

Leaving Mormonism forced me to confront surprisingly basic questions as an adult: What do I want? What do I believe? Who am I when nobody else gets to give me the answer?

In that context, reclaiming some of the supposedly “lower” Red stage of development began to look less like regression and more like unfinished developmental work. Creativity became part of that process. Writing, acting, singing, podcasting, questioning authority, expressing anger, setting boundaries, and risking disapproval all required something I had spent much of my life distrusting: an ego strong enough to believe that my voice deserved to exist.

And then, on a flight home from vacation with my kids, I watched Better Man and heard Robbie Williams sing “My Way.”

I cried.

Not because I wanted to become Frank Sinatra or Robbie Williams. But because for the first time, the song sounded like permission to stop kneeling and just be me.

This episode explores the messy difference between selfishness and selfhood, between healthy and unhealthy anger, between disagreement and contention, and between boundaries and cruelty. It asks whether some behaviors that look like regression from the outside might sometimes be the painful work of developing capacities that were skipped the first time around.

Because the goal isn't to replace compassion with power.

It is to give compassion a backbone.

And perhaps that's what healthy Red ultimately offers us: the ability to love, serve, sacrifice, and care for other people not because we're frightened of what will happen if we don't, but because we're finally free enough to fully choose them for ourselves.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#8 I Did It My Way: The Power of Becoming Yourself: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage: CHAPTER 2

What if selfishness isn't always a flaw? What if learning to say I want, I choose, and this is my life is actually a necessary part of becoming a healthy human being?

In this episode of Deep Play, we mine Frank Sinatra’s “My Way” to explore the psychology of power, ego, confidence, and self-authorship.

On the surface, the song practically bleeds Red, the power-driven third stage of Spiral Dynamics. Sinatra stands tall, takes the blows, swallows his doubts, claims his victories, and refuses to kneel. There are mistakes and consequences along the way, but remarkably few apologies. The ultimate measure of a life well lived according to this stage is simple: I did it my way.

But as you might guess, that attitude has a shadow. Unchecked confidence can become arrogance. Self-assertion can become domination. Independence can become an inability to recognize how deeply our lives depend on other people.

But Luke and Jen highlight a side of red that they both missed in their own growth early in life: For people who learned to survive by pleasing others, avoiding conflict, suppressing desires, or believing that asserting themselves was selfish or rude, Red contains something almost medicinal: permission to exist on your own terms.

We explore why a healthy ego isn't something to eliminate, but something to develop. Why disappointment and regret are sometimes unavoidable consequences of making your own choices. Why boldness can be both dangerous and deeply attractive. And why a person who never learns to assert themselves may struggle to build the confidence necessary for all growth that comes later.

And then we arrive at the lyric at the heart of the episode:

“For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.”

It captures both the beauty and danger of the Red worldview: the discovery that your voice, desires, strength, and identity actually belong to you.

Because sometimes growing up means learning to cooperate with the world.

And sometimes it means finally learning when not to kneel.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#7 Frank Sinatra's My Way: Power, Ego, and the Birth of Self: Spiral Dynamics Red Stage CHAPTER 1

Before there were rules to follow, systems to trust, or moral codes to obey, there was power.

In this episode of Deep Play, we explore the Red stage of Spiral Dynamics, the explosive developmental leap where the individual ego steps out of the tribe and declares: I am here. I want things. And I’m going to do something about it.

Our soundtrack is Frank Sinatra’s immortal anthem “My Way.” We trace Sinatra’s remarkable rise, fall, and reinvention, from Bobby-soxer hysteria and Hollywood stardom to the Rat Pack, volatile temper, tough-guy mythology, and one of the most recognizable declarations of personal sovereignty ever recorded in song.

Then we dig beneath the swagger.

Drawing connections between Spiral Dynamics and the developmental theories of Clare Graves, Robert Kegan, Lawrence Kohlberg, Jane Loevinger, Jean Piaget, Abraham Maslow, and others, we explore why the emergence of ego, power, confidence, and self-interest represents an important chapter in human development.

Because Red isn't simply violence, narcissism, domination, and “might makes right.” Healthy Red gives us something essential: agency. The ability to say no. To take up space that is rightfully ours. To express what we want. To defend ourselves. To stop living entirely according to someone else's expectations.

The shadow is brash domination.

The gift is selfhood.

So pour yourself something Sinatra might approve of, relax and join us as we explore the developmental force behind one of the most defiant sentences in popular music:

I did it my way.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#4 When Superstitions aren't so Super: Luke and Jen share personal experiences of transcending their own superstitious beliefs: Spiral Dynamics Purple Stage: CHAPTER 3

What happens when you realize that many of the superstitious views you grew up with aren't really all that super?

In this episode of Deep Play, Luke and Jen continue exploring the magical, animistic world view of the Purple Stage of the Spiral Dynamics, but this time the journey gets personal.

As children, most of us lived for years in a world where Santa could really visit every house in one night, stuffed animals had feelings, special shoes made us run faster, stepping on a crack could injure our mother's backs, and a kiss could make a scraped knee better.

But what happens when those magical beliefs get a little more complex and carried into adulthood, like culturally reinforced superstitions or religious stories?

Magical/superstition beliefs have the power to give humans of all ages security, imagination, hope, and a way of making sense of an enormous and confusing universe. Unfortunately these same beliefs often come with significant shadows, because they also have the power to instill deeply irrational fears and harmful behaviors.The truth is most of us never entirely leave that magical world behind. Adults still carry lucky objects. Athletes perform elaborate pregame rituals. We knock on wood. We notice coincidences. We feel certain songs arrive at exactly the right moment. We sense destiny in relationships. We sometimes wonder whether an unexpected event might be a sign to us from the heavens.

Luke and Jen explore their own personal experiences with Mormon magical beliefs and how they originated in Joseph Smith's early days of treasure seeking, seer stones, visions, prophecy, angels, folk magic, and religious experimentation, along with the remarkable spiritual laboratory of early nineteenth-century America that historians call the Burned-over District. And how generations these beliefs were passed on to us as children.

But this isn't simply an episode about whether those beliefs or Mormonism as a whole are true or false.

It's about what those beliefs did for us and generations of Mormons before us. They created meaning, identity, belonging, and made us feel as though we were at the center of the universe.

For Luke, losing that worldview as he deconstructed Mormonism over the last few years has been devastating. Eventually an even deeper belief began to collapse: the idea that God, the universe, or some invisible force was divinely orchestrating the events of his life. And when the universe stopped speaking, something frightening appeared in the silence.

Nihilism.

If there was no divine plan, no cosmic choreography, no invisible hand guiding his life, then what did any of it mean?

But perhaps there is a third possibility between complete faith in cosmic magic and the terror of nihilism. Maybe we can still experience relationships, nature, a sky filled with stars and deeply touching music that seems to arrive at just the right time without believing they were cosmically orchestrated just for us, but still find awe and appreciation for their existence in our lives.

Maybe a coincidence can still be meaningful without being supernatural. Maybe shared community ritual can connect us without controlling us. Maybe spotting symbolic meaning in life events can reveal something profound without being a literal sign from the universe.

Maybe we can experience awe, beauty, transcendence, intuition, mystery, and interconnectedness while still being willing to ask: How do I actually know what I think I know?

Perhaps development isn't a journey from enchantment to disenchantment.

Perhaps it's a journey from unconscious surrender to inherited beliefs and instead a transcendent awe and appreciation for the meaning we consciously ascribe to our personal interactions with the universe.

#5 The Superstitions We Never Outgrew: Spial Dynamics Purple Stage CHAPTERS 4-5

Why does the human mind find signs, spirits, omens, and hidden meaning everywhere?

In this episode of Deep Play, we trace magical thinking from Neanderthal burials and prehistoric cave art to ancient gods, biblical miracles, lucky charms, sacred rituals, and modern-day superstitions. What began as a powerful survival tool helped our ancestors interpret danger, strengthen tribal bonds, explain the unexplainable, has been passed through the ages to modern humans, and not always for the better.

Our instinct to connect the dots also has a shadow. The same pattern-seeking mind that creates wonder and belonging can produce false causality, fear, scapegoating, conspiracy theories, and vulnerability to spiritual manipulation.

We explore themes of magical meaning-making in pop culture through songs, movies, sports, commercials and the like.

Through the psychology of apophenia, confirmation bias, ritual, and the placebo effect, we explore why even rational people remain superstitious—and why simply abandoning magic may leave us with an emotionally sterile world. The challenge isn’t choosing between blind belief and empty cynicism. It’s learning to preserve awe, symbolism, and sacred meaning while staying grounded in evidence and discernment.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com

#6 Superstition - Stage Purple, Spiral Dynamics CHAPTERS 6-7

In the final chapters of this exploration of superstition and magical thinking, Luke and Jen shift from deconstruction to reconstruction. After examining humanity's long history of symbolic thinking, rituals, myths, and supernatural beliefs, they ask a deeper question:

What do we keep?

Rather than dismissing magical worldviews as irrational relics of the past, Luke and Jen explore the enduring human needs hidden beneath them: the need for safety, belonging, identity, hope, meaning, connection, beauty, transcendence, and wonder. The challenge is not simply abandoning old beliefs, but learning how to preserve what is valuable while releasing what no longer serves us.

In this episode, they explore:

• Why symbolic thinking was one of humanity's earliest evolutionary breakthroughs

• The difference between conscious meaning-making and unconscious superstition

• How fear, uncertainty, and anxiety amplify magical thinking

• Why rituals can still be psychologically beneficial even without supernatural explanations

• The role of placebo effects, emotional symbolism, and personal meaning

• The dangers of fear-based religion, conspiracy thinking, pseudoscience, and charismatic authority

• How scientific thinking and spiritual meaning can coexist without becoming enemies

• Why many people today feel trapped between rigid belief and empty cynicism

• The importance of discernment, intellectual humility, and curiosity

• What it means to preserve wonder without sacrificing critical thinking

Luke and Jen argue that growth is less about mocking earlier ways of seeing the world and more about understanding the human needs those beliefs were trying to meet. Whether through religion, ritual, lucky charms, sports superstitions, spirituality, astrology, or modern self-help movements, people are often searching for the same fundamental experiences: connection, comfort, identity, reassurance, and hope.

The conversation culminates in a guided meditation designed to help listeners examine their own relationship with symbolism, fear, ritual, meaning, and uncertainty. Rather than asking listeners to reject their past beliefs, the meditation invites them to approach those beliefs with compassion, curiosity, and self-awareness. It explores how symbolic thinking can be appreciated without becoming rigid, fear-driven, or disconnected from reality.

At the heart of this episode is a simple but powerful idea:

The goal is not to choose between blind belief and cold skepticism. The goal is to learn how to hold mystery consciously.

Can we honor science while still feeling awe? Can we appreciate symbolism without surrendering discernment?Can we remain intellectually honest while still embracing beauty, wonder, spirituality, and emotional depth?

Join Luke and Jen as they explore a more integrated path forward, one that preserves curiosity without gullibility, reverence without fear, and meaning without dogma.

Because perhaps wisdom is not found in eliminating mystery, but in learning how to live with both wonder and discernment at the same time.

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist can be found here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5

#3 Superstition by Stevie Wonder helps us understand why most people still believe in magic: Spiral Dynamics Stage Purple CHAPTERS 1-2

Why are human beings so superstitious?

Why do we knock on wood, carry lucky objects, perform rituals before big events, see meaning in coincidences, talk to people who have died, fear certain numbers, believe in destiny, or occasionally wonder whether the universe is trying to tell us something?

In this episode of Deep Play, we leave the raw survival world of Beige and enter Purple, the tribal and magical world of Spiral Dynamics framework of collective human development.

Here, the universe isn't merely a collection of objects obeying physical laws.

It's enchanted.

For most of human history, survival depended not only on finding food and shelter, but since humans are a social species it has also relied heavily on belonging to families, tribes, and communities. Those communities created shared rituals, myths, traditions, symbols, ancestors, spirits, sacred places, taboos, and stories that helped make an unpredictable world feel meaningful.

And traces of that ancient way of viewing the world are still very alive inside most of us.

Our guide into this strange and fascinating territory is Stevie Wonder's 1972 funk masterpiece “Superstition.”

We explore Stevie Wonder's extraordinary life, from signing with Motown as a child prodigy to becoming one of the most influential musicians of the modern era. Then we dive into the remarkable creation of “Superstition,” its iconic clavinet riff, its connection to Jeff Beck, and the striking irony at the heart of the song:

The lyrics warn us against magical thinking while the music itself helps transport us into a magical feeling.

From broken mirrors and falling ladders to the number 13 and the Devil himself, Stevie takes us on a tour through humanity's ancient relationship with omens, symbols, invisible forces, and fear.

But we're going deeper than asking whether superstition is simply true or false. We're asking why our human minds crave these beliefs and explanations in the first place?

Superstition can help us cope with uncertainty. Ritual can make an uncontrollable world feel slightly more controllable. Myth can transform chaos into story. Symbols can connect generations. Shared ceremonies can turn collections of individuals into communities.

And sometimes believing that something larger than us is watching over our lives can give us hope when logic has very little comfort to offer.

But the same psychological mechanism also comes with a distinct shadow.

Our hunger for patterns and meaning can lead us to patterns that aren't really there. Our desire for protection from the unknown can become deep unfounded fear. Our shared myths can become unquestionable dogmas. And people who claim privileged access to invisible truths can use those beliefs to manipulate others.

That makes Stevie Wonder's warning surprisingly profound:

What happens when we become controlled by things we don't actually understand?

We explore the strange borderland between spirituality and superstition, ritual and compulsion, intuition and evidence, meaning and magical thinking.

The goal here isn't to strip the universe of mystery, but learning how to transcend and include the experience of wonder without surrendering our curiosity.

Deep Play Pod details:

If this episode resonates with you, you can help keep the podcast accessible to everyone by following, supporting, and sharing the show on Patreon:⁠ ⁠https://www.patreon.com/c/DeepPlay⁠⁠

The official Deep Play Podcast playlist with all the songs we’ve used to illustrate the concepts we've covered for expansive living can be found here:⁠ ⁠https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4VwZiaenSdnrd7nKO25oiy?si=2b064de6b08a43c5⁠⁠

Send us your thoughts and comments: ⁠deepplaypod@gmail.com