This week I'm releasing the first half of my talk with the Rev. Dr. Lillian Daniel, Conference Minister of the Michigan Conference of the United Church of Christ and author of Defrocked: Good News from a Bad Pastor for a Better Church (Vilicus Press, 2026). Lillian is a preacher, teacher, and writer, and she cares deeply about clergy and congregations.

We talked about why Lillian wrote Defrocked as a failure story, and about why the church, even in our more open-minded and welcoming denominations, is so bad at talking about failure. We also swapped stories about the detours, rejections, and firings that turned out to point us toward ministry.

Several themes came up, including:

• Why perfectionism may be the church’s chief heresy
• How writing a hard story honestly, without resentment, an “I told you so,” or casting yourself as victim or villain, can change you
• How church processes are written and enforced by human beings, and how processes meant to protect people can also cause harm
• The partnership between the United Church of Christ and The United Church of Canada, and why cross-border conversations matter right now

Two of the books that come up in this episode are Defrocked and Lillian’s earlier book, This Odd and Wondrous Calling, which is taught in many seminaries. We also mention Barbara Brown Taylor’s Leaving Church. Our conversation was so great, next week stay tuned for Part 2!

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My colleague and friend, the Rev. Mitchell Anderson, lead minister at St. Paul's United Church in Saskatoon, joined me to discuss the ways he holds governance, administration, leadership and ministry together. St. Paul's is one of the fastest growing congregations in the United Church. St. Paul's statement of welcome shares:

Who do we welcome at St. Paul's

Our church strives to be a place where every person is welcomed, valued, and loved. We believe that all people are created in the image of God, and we joyfully embrace individuals of every age, race, gender identity, and sexual orientation. Whether you are exploring faith for the first time or have been part of church life for years, you are invited to bring your whole self into our community. Here, you will find a safe, affirming space to worship, grow, ask questions, and belong—just as you are.

More than church growth, Mitchell shared some of his views on making faithful planning choices, and how he has married his executive skillset earned in his MBA and honed through leading boards of large institutions alongside his ministry.

Mitchell is passionate about sharing the life-changing good news of Jesus Christ with new people and renewing the church through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is currently pursuing a doctorate of ministry in leadership at Tyndale University. In addition to this theological education, Mitchell holds an MBA and advises and serves on the boards of local, provincial, and national organizations, bringing together financial and strategic insight to advance social change. He enjoys fitness, great coffee, and experiencing the natural and human beauty of the Prairies and Saskatoon with his husband Jordan.

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Thanks for your interest in Church-y Conversations with People Who Know Things.

If something in this episode stuck with you, hit subscribe and leave a rating or review! It genuinely helps others find these conversations. And if you know someone you think would benefit from this conversation, share this episode with them!

Until next time: keep asking the church-y questions and having church-y conversations.

This week, Carmen talks with Elisabeth Jones about her new book Midrashic Imagination: Texts and Textures for Pulpit and Pew (available from Fortress Press or your favourite local bookseller in the US, and from Chapters or by special order from your favourite local bookstore in Canada). Jones argues for an approach to preaching that facilitates holy inspiration, transformational discipleship, and faithful public witness. What she demonstrates in this book is a tested method of midrashic biblical imagination that enables preachers and their communities of faith to explore the polyvalence of the biblical text. In Midrashic Imagination, Jones draws on ancient and contemporary interpretive practices that privilege curiosity, open-ended questioning, and faithful imagination.

Jones's midrashic biblical imagination enables the preacher and congregation, or people in other communal settings, to unlock the various interpretive possibilities of any biblical text or genre. Midrashic Imagination provides an approach to Scripture that delays judgment, works across confessional and theological differences, and invites inquiry and curiosity centered on the biblical text.

Midrashic Imagination is designed for working preachers who are called to preach biblically while searching for a solid, adaptable method to take the Bible imaginatively too. This book is a good fit for preachers focused on the sacred connection between the lively word of God in Scripture and today's cultural landscape, spiritual longings, hopes, and fears.

Elisabeth Jones is a theologian, preacher, author, pastor, community builder, and lover of gardening, grandparenting, sourdough baking, and wor(l)d turning.

Holding degrees from York University, UK, Vancouver School of Theology M.Div., Th.M.), and Luther Seminary (D.Min.), and ordained in the United Church of Canada in 1998, Elisabeth has served as theological educator at the Vancouver School of Theology, and at the United Theological College (Montreal), and as Lead Minister at Cedar Park United, in Pointe Claire, Quebec.

Elisabeth is the author of Midrashic Imagination: Texts and Textures for Pulpit and Pew (Fortress, 2026), and now devotes much of her professional time to sharing this deeply faithful, imaginative and transformative way of reading sacred texts in community.

The rest of the time, she can be found in her garden trying to coexist with rabbits, groundhogs and various insects who like her veggie patch as much as she does. Or travelling or pickleball playing with her husband. Or getting into mischief with her grandchildren. Or….

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Thanks for your interest in Church-y Conversations with People Who Know Things.

If something in this episode stuck with you, hit subscribe and leave a rating or review! It genuinely helps others find these conversations. And if you know someone you think would benefit from this conversation, share this episode with them!

Until next time: keep asking the church-y questions and having church-y conversations.